Traditional Ammunition - Under Attack

[huntrights]

The purpose of this thread is to start documenting the continuing attacks on traditional (lead-based) ammunition.

Good Source for Reference:

Hunt for Truth
http://www.huntfortruth.org/

[huntrights]

"Colorado: Lead Ammunition Ban Defeated"
http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2014/11/colorado-ammunition-ban-defeated.aspx

[csaaphill]

hunting truth saved to favs thanks for the info.
I see that They are heading to Oregon now so Washington next.

[huntrights]

It's already started.

WDFW had a topic in their "View & Comment on Proposed Hunting Regulation Issues and Alternatives" opportunity that ended on 9-22-14.  The topic was titled "General Issues - Non-Toxic Ammunition".  People need to pay attention to attempts to manipulate public opinion.  Look at what just happened with I-594.

Below is part of a post from another thread in this forum regarding that topic:
"Last Chance to View & Comment on Proposed Hunting Regulation Issues"
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,161014.msg2123803.html#msg2123803

 

This topic appears to be setting the stage to ban traditional ammunition in Washington just as was recently done in California. However, the Golden Eagle is being used as the "poster child" in place of the California Condor.  The WDFW should present this subject in an honest and unbiased manner based on scientific facts and the actual conditions in Washington State.

The background information in the survey can strongly mislead the reader to believe high blood-lead levels in birds of prey are due to consuming spent lead from traditional ammunition.

Background Information given in the survey:
"A wide variety of birds may consume spent lead shot, resulting in increased mortalities and sublethal effects.  Birds of prey may ingest lead as they scavenge animals (e.g., deer) taken during hunting seasons.  In Washington, there is increasing evidence of lead consumption by golden eagles, a species of concern with low population levels (see Golden eagle ecology)."

Then what may guide the reader further down the path of believing traditional ammunition is the cause of high blood-lead levels in Golden Eagles is the link they provided to a webpage with a photo and chart that subliminally supports the blame on traditional ammunition.  The Raptor Ecology WDFW webpage (http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/research/projects/raptor/golden_eagle_ecology/) has a photo of an eagle standing over what appears to be a dead deer and a chart of blood-lead levels of Golden Eagles in WA; the viewer may be misled to conclude the source of lead in eagles is from spent traditional ammunition from harvested deer during hunting season. However, the text on the webpage correctly states that the sources of lead contamination in Golden Eagles in Washington are unknown.  If the sources of lead are unknown, why are they pointing an accusing finger at traditional (metallic lead) ammunition?

There are many sources of bioavailable lead that are found in the environment.
“Unlike metallic lead, industrial lead compounds are highly soluble. … The solubility of lead is an important factor in determining the relative bioavailability of the substance in an organism. Bioavailability refers to the manner and ease with which a substance can pass into an organism (after ingestion, inhalation or dermal exposure) and reach the systemic circulation, eliciting a response in the body (i.e. lead poisoning). Soluble forms of compounded lead in industrial products, such as leaded paint, gasoline and pesticides, are readily absorbed in the body and increase blood-lead levels significantly. In other words, the lead in industrial lead compounds is soluble and can readily be absorbed within biological systems, making them bioavailable to humans, plants and animals, and potentially causing lead poisoning.” (http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/alternative-sources-of-lead-in-the-environment/).

Let's think about this.  How much of a deer or elk gut pile will a bird of prey actually consume?  How about the wolves, cougar, bear, coyotes, etc.  If a bird of prey does eat some of a gut pile, what are the chances they will eat that one piece of meat that might have a piece of metallic lead in it?  If they do get a tiny piece of metallic lead, just how bioavailable and soluble is it and will it cause lead poising and/or high blood-lead levels?  Let's not let Washington follow the path of the California anti-gun, anti-hunting, and animal-rights extremists. 

This is not to question the scientific ability of WDFW biologists; it is about how information has been presented that appears questionable and seems to direct people toward an agenda of banning traditional ammunition just as it was done in California. 

Why aren't we paying attention to the facts?
"5 Yr. Lead Ammo Ban Fails To Reduce Levels of Lead In Condors"
"- Despite a 99% compliance rate by hunters, there has been no reduction in condor lead posioning during the 5 years that the lead ammunition ban has been in place within the condor corridor."
http://www.huntfortruth.org/5-year-lead-ban-fails-to-reduce-blood-lead-levels-in-california-condors/

Here is another interesting article about the California Condor:
http://www.huntfortruth.org/californias-pet-condors-now-in-living-color-2/

And more interesting reading:
http://www.huntfortruth.org/?s=condor+lead+poisoning

[Crunchy]

where else would the lead come from?  Seems logical that decades of shooting leadshot into rivers, lakes and fields would be the source.  Maybe I am missing something???

[csaaphill]

where else would the lead come from?  Seems logical that decades of shooting leadshot into rivers, lakes and fields would be the source.  Maybe I am missing something???

ya sounds like it!

[lokidog]

where else would the lead come from?  Seems logical that decades of shooting leadshot into rivers, lakes and fields would be the source.  Maybe I am missing something???

Yeah, you're missing something......  Lots of digging and diving by deer and elk happening out there.     Funny thing about lead shot is that it is HEAVY and will sink to the bottom of mud or gravel.  That's one reason you can't just pick up gold nuggets in streams and lakes......

[huntrights]

A key factor to consider is the bio-availability and solubility of the lead that is allegedly consumed.  For example, how many decades did we burn leaded gasoline in our vehicles?  What is the lead content of the soils on the sides of our roads that resulted from decades of using leaded gasoline?  Birds of prey may eat a lot of road-kill.  Are they eating contaminated soils along with the road kill?  Why don't these biologists that point an accusing finger at traditional ammunition look at these other sources of lead?  How bio-available is a tiny piece of metallic lead that a bird of prey has very little chance of consuming from a deer or elk gut pile?  Beware of the manipulation of public opinion when there are efforts to ban traditional ammunition.

Read these articles:
"Alternative Sources Of Lead In The Environment"
http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/alternative-sources-of-lead-in-the-environment/

5 Yr. Lead Ammo Ban Fails To Reduce Levels of Lead In Condors
http://www.huntfortruth.org/5-year-lead-ban-fails-to-reduce-blood-lead-levels-in-california-condors/

There is a significant anti-hunting element behind the push to ban traditional ammunition.  Don't be fooled like many people were with I-594.

[TONTO]

 Metalic lead in the water is not the same as a lead compound released in the water. Lead does not disolve in water. It just sinks and lays there.

[jay.sharkbait]

If this forces me to shoot barnes bullets, I'm gonna lose it!

[Fowlweather25]

  not ok!!!! Like, really lose it!

[JimmyHoffa]

Those birds have high levels of more than just lead.  Usually they have lead, cadmium and mercury.  I don't know of bullets using cadmium, and doubt anyone is using rounds with mercury (especially for hunting--been illegal for a while).  About the only place I can think of (sure someone on here might know of others) where the three seem to exist is smoke from coal plants.  Maybe the birds like to fly in the smoke or something. 

[huntrights]

Those birds have high levels of more than just lead.  Usually they have lead, cadmium and mercury.  I don't know of bullets using cadmium, and doubt anyone is using rounds with mercury (especially for hunting--been illegal for a while).  About the only place I can think of (sure someone on here might know of others) where the three seem to exist is smoke from coal plants.  Maybe the birds like to fly in the smoke or something. 

"Alternative Sources Of Lead In The Environment"
http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/alternative-sources-of-lead-in-the-environment/

[timberfaller]

Two groups to watch out for and reject!

One: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/

Two: The DNC!!!!!!  Brown nose'ers to the above group!

[Special T]

Well there are the old lead smelters that are in Wa history, and what about the mine in BC that flooded and washed mercury and other metals into the water... arent the fish in lake Roosevelt not fit for consumption because of these issues?

[timberfaller]

"arent the fish in lake Roosevelt not fit for consumption because of these issues?" 

Lot of people fish and EAT the ones out of Lake Roosevelt!  They smoke up great too!!

[Special T]

I thought i member a WDFW warning about some kind of fish that they said had high levels of heavy metal in them.... mabee im wrong...

[huntrights]

Anti-hunting organizations and some scientists/biologists that may have anti-hunting sentiments may tend to bias their research and point accusing fingers at traditional ammunition because it serves their anti-hunting ideologies and agendas.  Scientists/biologists and organizations making these assertions should not ignore the many other very obvious sources of bio-available lead in the environment that can easily enter into the blood of birds of prey like the Condor or Golden Eagle.  There is considerable information available to show that lead-contaminated soils along roadways can be significant.  Birds of prey may eat road-kill or even a fresh kill by the sides of roads; most people have seen them in action.  Obviously these birds will also be consuming some of the soils at the kill site that may adhere to the carcass.  Why aren't the "scientists/biologists" looking at this as one of many other sources of bio-available lead that may raise blood-lead levels in birds of prey?

Be very suspicious of direct accusations and assumptions that traditional ammunition is the cause of high blood-lead levels in birds of prey.  There are far too many other significant sources of bio-available lead in our environment to come to that conclusion.  It is merely a convenient tool for those with anti-hunting ideologies and agendas to use to sway public opinion because "everyone knows lead is toxic".  It's an easy, emotionally driven idea that can be used to sway public opinion by making what seems to be simple intuitive connections with people that do not understand the subject.  For example:  "Hunters use ammunition with lead bullets - some lead remnants from the bullets may be left in gut piles or carcasses of harvested animals (i.e. deer and elk) - birds of prey may consume portions of some of the gut piles and carcasses - therefore, the source of high blood-lead levels in birds of prey may be from traditional lead-based ammunition.".  See how easy that is?  Although, not one bit of it is backed up by unbiased, valid scientific evidence that the source of lead in the blood is from fragments of lead bullets.

Don't be fooled.  The ideologies and agendas of organizations and individuals that use these tactics to mislead and sway public opinion should cause people to question the information presented.

Below is just a small sample of information available showing other possible sources of high blood-lead levels in birds of prey.

Lead Contaminated Soil

Lead in Soil: Why is it a Problem?
http://www.epa.gov/region1/leadsafe/pdf/chapter3.pdf
Excerpt from the paper:
“Important sources of lead in the environment today include: …
 Lead from automobile emissions (before leaded gasoline was finally banned in 1986) that has been deposited on land and surface water. “

Lead Contaminated Soil
http://www.ledizolv.com/LearnAbout/LeadHazards/leadsoil.asp
Excerpt from the article:
“The greatest source of lead-contaminated soil is leaded gasoline. At one time the auto industry thought of leaded gasoline as a godsend, and it was burned in nearly every automobile. When this fuel burned, lead was released with the exhaust from the automobiles and settled on the ground. Although the federal government eliminated most use of leaded gas in the 1970s, approximately four to five million metric tons of lead once used in gasoline remains in U.S. soil.”

Soil Contamination Inspection
http://www.nachi.org/soil-contamination-inspection.htm
Excerpt from the article:
“Another common source of lead contamination is from leaded gasoline of years past. Soil that is close to a roadway with heavy traffic has the highest risk for this type of contamination.”

Gardening on Lead- and Arsenic-Contaminated Soils
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/tcp/area_wide/aw/appk_gardening_guide.pdf
Excerpt from the paper:
“Sources of lead and arsenic … Oil companies added lead to gasoline because it was an inexpensive and effective octane-booster and anti-knock compound. Combustion of leaded gasoline produced tiny
lead-rich particles. About 75% of gasoline lead was emitted from exhaust pipes; oil or internal surfaces of the engine and exhaust system trapped 25%. The lead-rich exhaust dust fell directly onto soil near the road or blew a short distance first. …  Soil lead concentrations typically are higher near heavily used roads than near less traveled roads. Some states banned leaded gasoline as early as 1986. Washington continued to allow leaded gasoline until the end of 1995, when it was banned nationwide.” …

“Lead arsenate was a popular insecticide during the first half of the 20th century because
of its low toxicity to plants and great effectiveness for controlling insect pests. … Repeated applications of lead arsenate over time caused lead and arsenic to accumulate
in soil.”

Lead and its human effects
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ehs/toxic/LeadGeneral.aspx
Excerpt from web site:
“Another common source of lead. Two possible sources of contaminated soil are leaded gasoline and industrial operations like smelters. While gasoline is generally no longer a major source of lead, decades of leaded gasoline left contamination in the soil next to roadways up to one-quarter of a mile from the road.”

[csaaphill]

you guys who agree with this are duped this is nothing more than a back door way to make hunting illegal.
why? well for starters the only lead maker left in USA went out of business rather than comply with EPA rules so no lead.
The other metals that will be allowed are in somce cases already banned or highly regulated and expencive to get. IF you read the initial story and went to the website and or have kept up with this should know that those other metals are or can be banned later too because they might be deemed bad for firehazards.
Truth is truth has no place anymore with an agenda so might as well buy a bow or crossbow.
keep your guns and ammo hidden and safe for when people finaly wake up.

[huntrights]

"Pathways of Exposure"
http://www.huntfortruth.org/science/lead-poisoning/pathways-of-exposure/
Excerpt from the article:
"When an organism ingests metallic lead (insoluble lead), the lead resists breakdown under normal digestive conditions in the body and passes out of the organism relatively unchanged.  When an organism ingests soluble forms of compounded lead found in industrial products, such as leaded paint, gasoline and pesticides, the lead is readily absorbed in the body and increases blood-lead levels significantly."

NSSF Attorney's letter to CA Wildlife Commissioners and Commission President Sutton
http://www.huntfortruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/140805-letter-to-Fish-and-Game-2.pdf

NSSF Protect Traditional Ammunition Fast Facts
http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/TraditionalAmmo.pdf

"Eagles are Soaring"
http://www.nssfblog.com/eagles-are-soaring/

[JimmyHoffa]

Let's think about this.  How much of a deer or elk gut pile will a bird of prey actually consume?  How about the wolves, cougar, bear, coyotes, etc.  If a bird of prey does eat some of a gut pile, what are the chances they will eat that one piece of meat that might have a piece of metallic lead in it?  If they do get a tiny piece of metallic lead, just how bioavailable and soluble is it and will it cause lead poising and/or high blood-lead levels?  Let's not let Washington follow the path of the California anti-gun, anti-hunting, and animal-rights extremists. 

This is not to question the scientific ability of WDFW biologists; it is about how information has been presented that appears questionable and seems to direct people toward an agenda of banning traditional ammunition just as it was done in California. 

The antis make it sound like every gut pile is riddled with lead bullets like chocolate chips in a cookie.  But for anyone that has hunted/field dressed enough, how many bullets are in gut piles?  I've never found one in guts.  A few right under the hide, lodged in between shoulder blade and ribs, in the shoulder muscle, in the skull.  But I would say it has only been maybe three animals total that didn't have a pass through.  Even guys I know that use little guns like .243s get pass throughs or lodged in meat/bone/hide for deer and the .223/.22-250 usually exit coyotes.  Most that I know that see the bullet didn't exit--look for the bullet to recover/inspect and have as a keepsake.  The antis also say 'carcass', but most animals I can think of that are shot aren't giant elk and moose, so they can usually be field dressed and transported for further processing as opposed to having to be deboned/quartered.  Then like you say all of the other predators that have first go at what is left.
And why aren't there lead issues in the states with huge whitetail and feral hog populations?  They kill far more animals in some of those states.  So, should be many more gut piles and carcasses around; but I don't hear about birds with metal poisoning and potential ammo bans there.

[Jingles]

Those birds have high levels of more than just lead.  Usually they have lead, cadmium and mercury.  I don't know of bullets using cadmium, and doubt anyone is using rounds with mercury (especially for hunting--been illegal for a while).  About the only place I can think of (sure someone on here might know of others) where the three seem to exist is smoke from coal plants.  Maybe the birds like to fly in the smoke or something. 

Well me also being a gold prospector with a 4 inch dredge I can say without any doubt of being mistaken that the amount of free mercury in the rivers streams and creeks in WA is almost unbelievable. Heck half the gold I find is contaminated/ covered with mercury and it is not from gold the old timers missed...  One reason I don't and won't eat fish from the Methow, Wenatchee , Peshastin, Lost River,  Goat Creek, and the Smilkimeen and all these feed into the Columbia so no Thanks from  there either

[BiggLuke]

Higher lead levels in the environment are not at all cause by ammunition.
Sure, some very specific localized examples exist... ie, dirt taken from an actual shooting range....

Where the lead comes from... is humans.

We are a wasteful dirty species.
Lead levels at any landfill are thousands of times higher than their surround natural environments.

We flush stuff down our toilets, throw garbage away, and drive vehicles every where.
If people were legitimately concerned about lead pollution, we should outlaw chemicals... not bullets.

Bullet lead, consists of a mere fraction of a percentage of what all the lead in this country is used for.
We ship billions of tons of lead from china every year.... you know how much actually goes into making bullets?

less than 1% of 1% of 1%.......  that's <0.0001%

Where is the rest of the lead going??? hmmm.....

[csaaphill]

Higher lead levels in the environment are not at all cause by ammunition.
Sure, some very specific localized examples exist... ie, dirt taken from an actual shooting range....

Where the lead comes from... is humans.

We are a wasteful dirty species.
Lead levels at any landfill are thousands of times higher than their surround natural environments.

We flush stuff down our toilets, throw garbage away, and drive vehicles every where.
If people were legitimately concerned about lead pollution, we should outlaw chemicals... not bullets.

Bullet lead, consists of a mere fraction of a percentage of what all the lead in this country is used for.
We ship billions of tons of lead from china every year.... you know how much actually goes into making bullets?

less than 1% of 1% of 1%.......  that's <0.0001%

Where is the rest of the lead going??? hmmm.....

I read a while back in the paper about gun ranges contributing to cancer or some other disease I ignored it just read the title im like ya I aint gona read about something that will Indubitably be used to ctrl me at some time!

[Little Dave]

Here's a list of sources of lead from the Health department in New York.

Paint, dust, soil, medicines, children's toys.

If we consume lead from medicines and paint chips we eat, that ends up in bio-solids that are sprayed in the forest as fertilizer.  Push back on this issue.  If they want to ban lead, ban it entirely.  Candle wicks from Mexico that contain lead, the beautiful white paints that people like for their home or artwork.  Perhaps not suitable for a child's crib, but okay for the fog line on the road?

The truth is that lead is poisonous... but if all the hunters and fishermen made a pile of lead in their possession it would not stack nearly as high as the car batteries, radiators, or cans of paint that were used to color nearly all the houses, cars, road stripes and fog lines.

---

https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/lead/sources.htm

Sources of lead in the environment

Paint, dust, soil, drinking water, air, medicines, cosmetics
children's toys, ceramics, china, imported foods, lead bullets
mini blinds, car batteries, radiators, inks

[huntrights]

"Bans on lead ammunition are misguided and ineffective ..."

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/07/bans_on_lead_ammunition_are_mi.html

[csaaphill]

"Bans on lead ammunition are misguided and ineffective ..."

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/07/bans_on_lead_ammunition_are_mi.html

been oing to ifish a lot and trying to pass these kinds of news stories on also. Don't hink it will matter but still trying.

[huntrights]

Don't ever give up. 

[huntrights]

"Court Rules With SCI On EPA Proposed Lead Ammo Limitations"
https://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/2015/01/21/court-rules-with-sci-on-epa-proposed-lead-ammo-limitations/
Posted by firstforwildlife on January 21, 2015


Link to a series of other related articles:
https://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/tag/lead-ammo-ban/

"Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission Defeats Lead Ammunition Petition"
https://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/colorado-parks-and-wildlife-commission-defeats-lead-ammunition-petition/
Posted by firstforwildlife on November 20, 2014

"HSUS Continues Anti-Hunting Agenda, Seeks To Ban Traditional Ammunition"
https://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/hsus-continues-anti-hunting-agenda-seeks-to-ban-traditional-ammunition/
Posted by firstforwildlife on July 30, 2014


Link to firstforwildlife:
https://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/author/firstforwildlife/

[Kittman]

Done deal-lead is banned now in California for hunting.  The federal government is holding up companies from making the acceptable performing non-lead bullets, but California won’t allow hunters to use lead ammo.  Catch 22.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/09/california-officially-bans-hunters-from-using-lead-bullets/

 

[huntrights]

Read the article and watch the video.

"INFOGRAPHIC: Ammunition Under Attack
April 10, 2015 By nssfnews"

http://www.nssfblog.com/infographic-ammunition-under-attack/