Barnes LRX performance

[Biggerhammer]

It was a 340 and they are traveling at about 3450 fps. I am still experimenting with that idea I told you about, Barnes bullets performing better in lightweight bullets at high velocity for the caliber. I shot and the elk dropped without taking a step, same as the bear I told you about a year ago. The tough thing is that you rarely recover a Barnes bullet to look it over. Probably any bullet designed for big game would have killed the elk.

Do you have an idea of what speed at target was?  The ballisticians I have talked with all agree that Barnes is best above 2,600 fps.  All agreed the TTSX gave more room for error but still drop rapidly in efficiency once you break the 2,400 mark.

I wonder if this is because the copper is more malleable an expands more rapidly  creating more shock

It would be interesting to know how the temperature of each bullet affects performance

I would think that temperature would have something to do with it.

[Buzz2401]

Killed eight elk with Barnes bullets and not one of those animals went further then 100yds and most went less then 20yrds.  Didn't know people were having problems with them. 

[RadSav]

Copper melt is nearly 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.  Annealing is done at an excess of 700 degrees Fahrenheit.  Lead melting point is about 620 F and annealing is done around 375 F.  Most Acetyl (plastic tips) have a melt point of just over 345 F. 

I don't see temperature of a Barnes at varying velocities making much of a difference in it's performance

Also, a .284 diameter bullet that does not expand is producing VERY little hydrostatic shock below 2,600 fps.  You have to transfer energy to create hydrostatic shock.  Without bullet expansion that is extremely hard to accomplish.  Hard to accomplish below 2,200 fps even if the bullet does expand rather rapidly.

[kentrek]

I would think that the heat created from powder burning, friction of the barrel & friction of the air would be enough to make the copper soft  which would speed up the expansion process of the barns, thus more shock...but who knows


Dang...is it September yet 

[Biggerhammer]

I would think that the heat created from powder burning, friction of the barrel & friction of the air would be enough to make the copper soft  which would speed up the expansion process of the barns, thus more shock...but who knows


Dang...is it September yet 

Sounds like serious sales hype on a failed design and the readers buy into it. I could understand using a Barnes bullet for super fast light weight , smaller diameter bullets. Let's say a .257 Weatherby. The heavy bullet construction of the Barnes and the speed of the big magnum pushing it may make it perform.


Guys in the "Know", know when it comes to taking game. Speed makes up for mass to a certain point. Then it's like a "Big Block" no replacement for displacement.

[Bob33]

This is an excerpt from an article written by an African outfitter/PH that I know. Your mileage may vary.

"I've seen every premium bullet and a pile of different brands calibers and weights of standard cup and core bullets used in my career. After all this time and all this experience one thing stands out for me. You cannot expect a perfect mushroom at extended ranges and still have the same projectile remain in one piece at 50 meters. That's a very tall order!

With that said the premium bullets manage this at various levels better then cup and core bullets. So what do you choose? Well you must choose the bullet that matches the range and the game. Shooting a TSX at a small species of deer under 100 meters is not your best option. Shooting a Ballistic tip at the 3200plus FPS range at under 100 meters on larger big game also not the best choice.

Consider what your after and the conditions to match what you're launching. Otherwise all this banter about failure or perfection is a waste of time. Use the right tool for the job. Anytime you have a all purpose tool you sacrifice performance at one end of the scale or the other.

Having said this, with my business in Africa, I will say that you never know what is going to show up where, or how big it will be. So preperation for the worst case scenerio is prudent. After seeing dozens if not hundreds of different bullets, loads, cartriges, and in many calibers. There is one bullet that stands out as fail proof and as functional as possible at this point in time. That is the TSX bullet. It's not the best bullet for every situation, but it's the closest to a perfect comprimise as you will find. Even in the worst case situation if it fails to open, it reamins a solid that will out penetrate anything else made today for hunting. So if your aim is true, you will poke a hole clean through the intended target/organ of choice.

You will normally get two holes in the animal, and normally find it dead in short order. There are always exceptions to these things, only a fool would argue that. I've seen some screwy performance from all kinds of bullets, the TSX included. However the most consistant lethal performance remains the TSX.

Also remeber that I was likely the single biggest detractor of the original X bullet on the internet from a PH's standpoint for many years. I would not use one of the original X bullets if they were given to me for free. This TSX is a much different product.

As it stands right now, my loaner rifles are shooting TSX bullets in Africa. I can use any bullet I want, and load any way I see fit. With all the options available to me, the TSX is still the most consistantly lethal bullet I have seen in the last 1000 plus big game animals shot with it in my camps.

When somebody shoots or sees shot that many big to huge animals the resolution of performance begins to appear a bit more in focus. Seeing a dozen or two animals is a good start. But hundreds and maybe 1000's of 200-2000 lb animals killed really sharpens your opinion!

There are lots of opinions, and we need all the MFG's we have today producing ammo. I don't want to see a monopoly with one bullet maker in control. However as a professional in a position of experience with these matters, You can see my choice, and what I based it on. Your mileage may vary, choose wisely!

As far as my opinion for various sized game or cartridges......... I've written this before both in print and on this site. I'll go from memory here so if one of you clever guys find it in another post and it's not dead on the money it should be very close. From my expereince with various ammo, I have this opinion to share:

For guns 30 caliber to 8mm in standard cartridges under 3000fps MV I like the Hornady Interbond very much on non-DG under 400 pounds. When the game is getting bigger or can fight back requiring bone crunching impacts at close range, I strongly prefer the TSX.

When the same conditions are met but using rifles shooting over 3000fps the Swift Aframe is a very hard bullet to beat. I think I have seen more shuddering and stunning game stopping impacts with this combination then just about anything else. Same thoughts for DG though, I pick the TSX again

With calibers over 8mm on smaller species of game as above the Swift Aframe, and the Hornady Interbond, and many other bonded bullets, except the NF are very good. The NF is very hard and does not open like the others do when shot from a slower rifle, or on smaller game.

On bigger game the NF is a perfect fit as are the others along with the TSX. As game increases in size to the 1000 lb mark the TSX starts to pull away again. I can say without hesitation that the 270 grain Aframe in the 375HH has provided some of the most spectacular shuddering and stunning kills I have ever witnessed.

One thing to point out here for you folks. As a PH I have the opportunity to see game hit that the hunter does not. His vision is greatly disrupted through recoil, while I am watching through field glasses. I've learned far more about bullet performance and impact watching game shot then I could have ever hoped to learn as a shooter.

There is also a stunning difference between the 300 grain bullet at 2500 and the 270 grain at 2800. The 300fps trumps the 30 grains of weight 100% of the time on every single animal I have ever seen shot with both. The 270 grain at 2800 has consistantly penetrated further on both Eland and Buffalo then the 300 grain bullet does. There is a spectacular difference in results between the two. Dropping down a weight class to increase velocity with a bullet that retains 100% of its weight is a winning combination just about every time!

Sectional density may have played a roll in history, but it's not a functional measure today when comparing a 300 grain Cup and core bullet to a 270 grain monolithic copper bullet. That copper bullet may start out lower in SD but it's not changing at anywhere near the rate that the crumpling lead and jacket shedding cup and core bullet does! The recovered SD of the monolithic bullet will be greater then the recovered SD of the soft pointed jacketed bullet In every case I have ever seen.

All bonded bullets are not the same. The Interbond I think has been the softest and easiest to expand of all I have used. It's a tremendous killer of big game when sized properly and driven to a prudent speed. The North Fork is the opposite end of the scale it's very firm, actually hard with a thick jacket compared to the Interbond.

The Aframe, Woodleigh and Accubond seem to split the difference and maybe have it about right for the "all around" use crowd. I guess I don't see the need for a bonded design as hard as the NF. I would just use the TSX and get the higher percentage exits. If I want something for smaller game, I'll use the Aframe or Interbond which open better at a greater distance and still hold together great.

There is one other issue at hand that many people don't figure into the formula of their choice. There is so much debate and stress over what is best. We don't always get to decide this! Our rifle makes the final decision for us. Not every rifle will shoot all the bullets accurately or consistantly, or without excessive fouling. Each bullet has just enough difference in construction that they must be proofed at the bench to determine the final decision. I have had rifles that would not shoot the original X bullet without massive and un-usable fouling. I have had a barrel that would shoot 4-5 hole touching shots with the Interbond and then send one out into never never land. Yet both these rifles would shoot the Aframe and TSX all day as much as you please with stunning accuracy. In another rifle, of a friend would not shoot the Aframe at all. I worked on that for months and finally gave up. Yet it would shoot Failsafe, Woodleigh, and the original X bullets with perfection.

I'm at the point now that if I had a rifle that would not shoot the TSX bullets just right I would strongly consider getting a new barrel. It's no longer about the gun being the decision maker to me. It's about using what I know has the track record to give me confidence to go hunting.

After all, when it's all said and done, your going to unleash this little projectile at about 3000 fps and that is the only thing that ties your hopes and dreams of a successful hunt together. Not the 3000 dollar custom rifle and scope, the goretex camo gear, the 4X4, the ATV, the field glasses, nothing but that little chunk of metal traveling away at about 3000 fps towards your trophy. Feel lucky?

Let me put this into a story perspective here. I have a hunter( this has happened a lot of times) We see the game and he makes the shot. At the instant of the booming report of the gun the animals takes several big leaps and is out of sight. This happens in a fraction of a second. He then turns to me and says, I know I hit that thing good. We stand just a couple feet apart, so close I could feel the pressure of the muzzle blast on my cheeks. He is staring at me...... blank..... waiting for some evaluation of what went wrong or what do we do now. I have to say to him, How did the shot feel? what do you think?

We have to walk that 100-150 yards to the location the animal was last seen. We see tracks and follow the direction. With the other 20 animals there with him the spoor becomes complicated and messy. After going down several possible escape routes through the bush, we find a spot of blood, not much but at least we know it's a hit.

Up to that instant there was really no indication of a hit with the TSX bullet. That's a feature I could live without. However the only way to solve that in my mind is less penetration and being stopped under the skin.

In nearly every case the animal is just a short distance beyond the first few drops of blood, some follow ups are more entertaining then others, but they have........ at least up til now been successful. The few that have been lost are shooter errors. In the last two seasons less then 5 animals have been lost and all have proven to be shooter error, as stated by the hunter themself.

With a bonded core bullet, you choose the type. There is a reaction to the impact much of the time. It's audible as well. I have heard the bullets impact the game as often as I have seen them shudder and stagger the instant of impact. This is certainly not 100% of the time, but quite frequent. With the TSX being the exact opposite ratio of visual impact unless shoulders or CNS hits are made.

How many here have heard the impact of a bullet into an animal? Its unmistakeable. How many here have seen the streak of the bullet with the sun glaring off of it as it travels towards the animal? These are things you don't see every time, but it's awfully impressive when you do.

So what about that DG issue? It's much more to do with placement then bullet design. Either way your gonna break something if you hit the drive train. I feel strongly that the TSX will break bones and continue going straight ahead. I'm somewhat less confident that a bonded core bullet will travel true once badly deformed and mushroomed.

After all the TSX is really an expanding solid right? For the folks that seem to debate what to use on DG first a soft then the rest of the magazine solids? I say that is very old school. Stack the magazine with both at the same time, fill it with the TSX and be done with that debate!"

[Biggerhammer]

For the most part unless your in Africa, it's all meaningless.

[mountainman]

Good read Bob33. And considering American game is the same size as African game, other then shouldered farther back on some African game, will hold true here in the states..

[RadSav]

It was a 340 and they are traveling at about 3450 fps.

I punched some numbers into the calculator and it looks like you would have been about 1,850 fps at 610 yards.  Did you hit bone or heavy meat areas?  That is even slow for a bonded bullet on a behind the shoulder shot!

That would be 42 clicks on my scope...good shooting

[Wacenturion]

Good read....thanks Bob.

[RadSav]

Good read Bob33. And considering American game is the same size as African game, other then shouldered farther back on some African game, will hold true here in the states..

However, what was your average shooting distance in Africa?  Many of the guys I know that have gone over there say the guides ABSOLUTELY will not allow a shot over 200 yards.  Notice where the PH says, "We have to walk that 100-150 yards to the location the animal was last seen..."  Barnes would be my choice the majority of the time if all my bear shots were under 150 yards.  Add 50 yards and it would be a toss up between Barnes and Bonded Core bullets.  Not sure that would be the case if 30% or even 25% of my shots were reaching out beyond 350 yards.  And we all know how many western hunters can shoot sub MOA at 1,000 yards these days NOT!!

I agree with that PH about the original X bullet being completely different to the newer Barnes.  IMO the TTSX is a completely different animal!  I watched Barnes testers with the original shooting goats in CA.  It was a horrible exhibition to put it mildly.  Even at 100 yards it was hard to watch those small animals being hit five or six times and still running off a cliff to die in the fall.  The few antelope (similar in size) that I have witnessed shot at distances close to 300 yards with the TTSX have been much better kills.  Even spectacular when range has been close and muzzle velocity magnum fast!

Longrange Barnes seems an oxymoron to me.  Bearpaw has a lot more faith than I do with Barnes at distance, apparently.  Even with a muzzle velocity of 3450 and a high BC (which none of them really have) I'm not sure I'm brave enough to take a 400+ yard shot with the Barnes.  610 yards, I'd probably be too scared of failure to even hit what I was aiming at.  Not even sure I'd take that shot with an Accubond!

[Biggerhammer]

I completly agree Rad, especially with your thoughts on velocity when it comes to the Barnes. Now I know for a fact that the Accubond will,perform at the 500-600 yard range.

I shot a Mulie buck facing me head on with a 260gr .375 diameter Accubond leaving the muzzle at 3050fps. Launched from a .375 Ultra Magnum at a range of 560 yards. Impact velocity was around 2000 FPS. From what was advertised that was within the claimed expansion threshold for the Accubond. The bullet penetrated from a center of the chest head on hit , it traveled the length of the deer and was found just on th under side of the hide on the belly just ahead of the pelvic bone. The bullet performed perfectly, rolled that buck off his feet and the hit sounded like you were slapping Rosannne Bar on the Azz with a canoe paddle!

The releasing of  .375 260gr Accubond bullet was a welcome ordeal for me due to the fact the older 260gr Ballistic Tip was not designed for Ultra Magnum velocities and I had expirienced some messy hits on Mule Deer with them. So I shot the Hornady 300gr Spire Point until the arrival of the Accubond. The 300gr Hornadys worked amazingly well on elk and bear.

Here's a few pics I took of the bullet and its recovery since the bullets were new to the market back then. I can't say I would even remotely have the same confidence with a Barnes as I do with a Accubond at those distances or impact velocities.

[mountainman]

Good read Bob33. And considering American game is the same size as African game, other then shouldered farther back on some African game, will hold true here in the states..

However, what was your average shooting distance in Africa? 

Shortest was 150 on a Kudu, longest was 475 on a blue wildebeest. At 308 velocities, bullets performed flawlessly! Yes, other bullets would have done the same, but in my XCR, the Barnes was a quarter minute round  Yes, say" Barnes", and some bust a corpusle, and expound their vendetta for whatever reason,  but real world experience don't lie... . To the OP, you can have every faith in your bullet, as long as it shoots accuratley in your gun!

[Buzz2401]

375 Ultra Mag for deer?

[Biggerhammer]

375 Ultra Mag for deer?

Yeah, figured it was better suited to Mulies and gave me more range than the .450 Ultra Magnum. . For the ease of a factory chambering and a true flat shooting across the board power house, the  .338 Ultra mag is where it's at.