Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[bobcat]

I have used an AR15 a time or for hunting big game and was going to offer up my opinion, because these are nothing but opinions.  Then I read through the entire thread and decided that I don't want to play the original posters games....... have fun guys. 

Just read this thread and am still happy I decided to stay out of this one......hahaha

Oh come on, no need to be scared. 

[Landowner]

Boone & Crockett on long range "hunting":

The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt.  The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting. 

https://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1

[Karl Blanchard]

This topic is about shooting elk, right? At 500 to 600 yards? If so, no matter how good the shooter is, a 122 grain bullet at 2,400 fps muzzle velocity is inadequate for shooting elk at that range. I'm pretty sure most experienced hunters would agree.

Not trying to be a wise crack but you stated yourself your farthest kill was 320, so your claim of inadequacy is purely speculation as you have no experience with this round, especially at mid range distances.

True, but I know enough that I'd never attempt such a long shot with a marginal caliber.

I've also never missed a shot because it was too far, or wounded and not recovered an elk because I took a long shot and didn't hit it perfectly.

How can you know enough if you have never shot the gun or shot an animal at mid to long diatance?

[Bob33]

This topic is about shooting elk, right? At 500 to 600 yards? If so, no matter how good the shooter is, a 122 grain bullet at 2,400 fps muzzle velocity is inadequate for shooting elk at that range. I'm pretty sure most experienced hunters would agree.

Not trying to be a wise crack but you stated yourself your farthest kill was 320, so your claim of inadequacy is purely speculation as you have no experience with this round, especially at mid range distances.

True, but I know enough that I'd never attempt such a long shot with a marginal caliber.

I've also never missed a shot because it was too far, or wounded and not recovered an elk because I took a long shot and didn't hit it perfectly.

How can you know enough if you have never shot the gun or shot an animal at mid to long diatance?

I assume that Bobcat has knowledge of quite a few things he hasn't personally experienced.

Do you not?

[bobcat]

This topic is about shooting elk, right? At 500 to 600 yards? If so, no matter how good the shooter is, a 122 grain bullet at 2,400 fps muzzle velocity is inadequate for shooting elk at that range. I'm pretty sure most experienced hunters would agree.

Not trying to be a wise crack but you stated yourself your farthest kill was 320, so your claim of inadequacy is purely speculation as you have no experience with this round, especially at mid range distances.

True, but I know enough that I'd never attempt such a long shot with a marginal caliber.

I've also never missed a shot because it was too far, or wounded and not recovered an elk because I took a long shot and didn't hit it perfectly.

How can you know enough if you have never shot the gun or shot an animal at mid to long diatance?

There are these things called "books."     And of course now we have the Internet. Also there is another thing called "math."  With these two things most intelligent people can learn a lot about ballistics and what distances certain cartridges are capable of killing elk, 100% of the time.

By the way mid range to me is 200 yards, long range is 400. I would like to eventually get a different scope and become proficient to about 550 yards. But when I do, I'll be sure to choose a cartridge that has more than enough power for the job.

[Karl Blanchard]

Books are cool but I prefer to gather my knowledge from killing animals and breaking said animals down.  Different projectiles kill in different ways so adding a generic number to one projectile doesn't necessarily apply to another.  Prime example, VLD vs. any bonded bullet.  I will guarantee you a VLD will very efficiency kill a deer or elk past the "800 ft pound minimum" your book tells you is required to kill an elk.  He/she would hunch, look around, and tip over.  I've seen it.

[bobcat]

I don't get that many opportunities to hunt elk so I'd rather use more than just the bare minimum that MIGHT kill an elk, and only if I hit it perfectly.

I don't doubt that you've killed elk at ultra long range with cartridges that I might consider to be inadequate.

[jay.sharkbait]

Books are cool but I prefer to gather my knowledge from killing animals and breaking said animals down.  Different projectiles kill in different ways so adding a generic number to one projectile doesn't necessarily apply to another.  Prime example, VLD vs. any bonded bullet.  I will guarantee you a VLD will very efficiency kill a deer or elk past the "800 ft pound minimum" your book tells you is required to kill an elk.  He/she would hunch, look around, and tip over.  I've seen it.

Is this 800 foot pound number something that the OP and Bobcat can agree on?

[Karl Blanchard]

I don't get that many opportunities to hunt elk so I'd rather use more than just the bare minimum that MIGHT kill an elk, and only if I hit it perfectly.

I don't doubt that you've killed elk at ultra long range with cartridges that I might consider to be inadequate.

Actually I've never killed an elk with a rifle, I've just helped on many hunts.

[bobcat]

Another thing I forgot to mention- I would not use a Berger VLD for elk hunting. I want a bullet that will penetrate the shoulder every time. Yes I've heard that some people say they WILL go through a shoulder, but I'm skeptical. I'll use a Barnes or Accubond so I have no doubt.

[JDHasty]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer. 

Another time I arrowed a big Roosevelt cow and hit her high in the chest, through both lungs and tracked the herd about two miles when I came on my buddy who saw a nail-head size spot of fresh blood crossing a road and tracked her out and finished her a half mile further.  Best tracker I have ever known.  He found her with her head hanging  down and put an arrow through her neck.  This elk was not losing blood through the wound, she was coughing up blood every once in a while, like every hundred yards tere was a clot of blood, and had Joe not stumbled on that spot of blood I doubt I would have seen that elk bagged.  It was Joe's elk, I had given up for the evening and when I got to the road it started to rain cats and dogs. 

It was after dark when I met up with him just getting back to the road.  I was shooting over brush from about thirty yards away and the arrow cracked as it broke ribs going through and knocked her over and I was waiting for her to die when she uprighted herself and took off with the rest of the herd following her. 

So much for:  punch a hole through both lungs and they curl up and die.  Yes, after they bleed out and in the case of this cow that took a while and she covered a lot of territory before "curling up and dying."

When we opened that elk a lake of blood rushed out and it was obvious that until her lungs were filled, and she couldn't breathe, she kept going and at a good pace.       

[dontgetcrabs]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer.         

So now you're saying a 270 isn't enough gun either?

[Karl Blanchard]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer.         

So now you're saying a 270 isn't enough gun either?

and since he made a poor shot with a bow, a 6.5 G is inadequate for large game.

[zike]

Boone & Crockett on long range "hunting":

The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt.  The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting. 

https://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1

B&C have a problem with long range shooting but they have no problems with baiting. LOL

[JDHasty]

NO, I am saying that an elk that is hit doesn't always act the way you expect them to.  That elk was dead on it's feet but making for a getaway.  In the snow, in Montana, he wasn't going to get away either. 

His liver and one lung were gone to pulp.  An elk is one tough hombre' is what I am saying.  If an elk is not broken down with both shoulders broken and the bullet has not done serious lung damage I would not bet on bringing it to bag.