2x2 Bucks only in Roosevelt, Harrington, and Steptoe

[muleyguy]

this is a move in a positive direction because 3 pt minimum has problems associated with it, especially over the long run.  When you switch to a 3 pt minimum all you are doing is moving the harvest from predominately 1.5 yr old deer to 2.5 yr old deer.  The reason it ends up being so popular with hunters is that hunters end up shooting a basket racked 17" little 3 pt, and, for many, it is the biggest deer they have ever shot, let alone seen.  But, the problem with it is that it does nothing to enhance the population of truly mature animals (4.5 yrs and older) and, research has shown that it can actually result in fewer mature animals because it tends to keep people in the field longer, thereby increasing the odds of a hunter stumbling across a truly mature animal.  This is especially true in open type country, like Lincoln county.  In migratory populations in the mountains, there is greater ability for escapement for bucks, so, you naturally end up with a few mature animals in the population.  But, in open country, what happens is that in the very, very short run, there is an increase in the buck to doe ratio, and, you increase the age class of harvested animals by one year, so it is percieved as a good thing.  But, over time, buck to doe ratio's go back to what they would have been anyway (harvestable animals), and, you end up with fewer and fewer truly mature animals in the population.

And, most importantly, what happens is  you end with 1.5 yr old deer doing a lot of the breeding.

Research has also shown (and it makes complete sense) that does breed by mature bucks, have fawns with a higher recruitment into the population base.  So, to get healthy deer populations, you need mature bucks breeding does.  You need age representation in all classes.

my guess is that the 2 pt rule has nothing to do with trying to harvest mature 2 pts out of the population, but, rather, to insure that mature bucks end up doing most of the breeding instead of 1.5 yr olds, and, to raise the number of older bucks in the population.

this is the same concept as what the WDFW has done with the elk management in the Yakima herd, and, it has worked wonderful.  Before this rule change, mature bulls in the Yakima herd were few and far between, after the rule, the age structure of the bulls is much better, with mature bulls doing most of the breeding.

my guess is that also after a few years after enough older bucks get into the population they will start issuing permits for "any buck", just like they do with the elk herd.  This is great news because this kind of management scheme lets people hunt everyear, but, once every 5 or 6 years be able to get drawn for a "big buck tag".  Just like the elk situation, this will result in the opportunity to harvest a great animal, once in awhile.

for the most part, all over the West, mule deer have not been managed so that a majority of the breeding is done by mature bucks;  I am sure the trend over the last 30 yrs in western mule deer populations has been one of ever decreasing age of bucks doing the breeding.  And, it is just an educated guess, but, I am sure that is partly responsible for the decline in mule deer populations in the West.  Even areas of great habitat and low populations have seen declines in mule deer fawn recruitment.

3 pt or better rules are not the solution, and are actually hurting the mule deer populations over the long run.  They are a short term feel good fix.  If you have a hard winter, and end up with very low buck to doe ratio's, it is much better just to restrict the hunting aggressively for one year to get them back up.  One year of aggressive cutbacks will get the same result without all the other problems 3 pt or better causes.

[huntnphool]

I dont buy that Muleyguy, the antler restriction has already been proven to work very well in other states. Don't get caught up in all the negative talk, there are plenty of mature mule deer bucks breeding, you're just not seeing as many because there are fewer hunters and the general season has been cut short for a few years.

[bobcat]

I agree with muleyguy. I don't think the 3 point minimum is a good thing for a healthy deer herd.

As he said,

In migratory populations in the mountains, there is greater ability for escapement for bucks, so, you naturally end up with a few mature animals in the population.

I believe it is simply the terrain and cover that has enabled our mule deer in certain areas, like the east slope of the Cascades, to remain in relatively good shape, and that it is not due to the minimum antler restriction. The best way to manage our mule deer, in my opinion, would be to go to permit only hunting so that the biologists can balance the number of hunters in each unit. But by popular opinion they are keeping the over-the-counter tag system so that is what we're stuck with, because most people want to hunt every year whether it's good for the mule deer population or not.

my guess is that also after a few years after enough older bucks get into the population they will start issuing permits for "any buck", just like they do with the elk herd.  This is great news because this kind of management scheme lets people hunt everyear, but, once every 5 or 6 years be able to get drawn for a "big buck tag".  Just like the elk situation, this will result in the opportunity to harvest a great animal, once in awhile.

muleyguy I'm not sure you're aware...these three units are still open for the general 3 point minimum season. So it seems to me these permits are simply to provide a little more "opportunity" and probably not a part of any sort of management strategy by the WDFW.   

[muleyguy]

"muleyguy I'm not sure you're aware...these three units are still open for the general 3 point minimum season. So it seems to me these permits are simply to provide a little more "opportunity" and probably not a part of any sort of management strategy by the WDFW."

yeah, I realized that, but I  was making more of a broad statement concerning the three point rule.  This is a step in the right direction though, and hopefully will turn into a management scheme, especially for some of the more open terrain units.

"the antler restriction has already been proven to work very well in other states. Don't get caught up in all the negative talk, there are plenty of mature mule deer bucks breeding, you're just not seeing as many because there are fewer hunters and the general season has been cut short for a few years."

huntphool,

I have hunted extensively in most of the western states for over 25 yrs.  Very few other Western states employ a three-point antler restriction in any kind of meaningful way, certainly nothing on the scale of WA state.  Wyoming has 2 areas I believe that are 4 pt or better restrictions, but they are not highly thought of units.  Idaho has already moved the SW portion of the state (owyhee) to 2 pt or less and has had great success, but has no 3 pt rules in any other parts of the state.   Montana has few if any antler restrictions, same with SD.  So, I am not really sure what states you are referring to.  I believe it was done some years ago in Utah for a short period of time after a severe winter kill, but, it is not currently being used.  Utah does give out "management tags",  good for 3 pt or less, they are strictly controlled, but, this is done because the buck to doe ratio's are very high in two of their limited draw areas (paunsaguant, henry mts). 

On a bigger note, the average age of bucks doing the breeding across the West has decreased over the last 25 years, I can guarantee you that, and obviously that is not due to 3pt minimum rules across the west, but, it is a fact nonetheless, and it is not doing the herds any good.  The 3pt minimum rules ends up just exacerbating this trend, creating a stockpile of 1.5 yr old male deer in the population base, that is common sense.  This is the only "protected" part of the male population, so over time, it becomes the dominant percentage of the population.  The dominant percentage of the population is going to end up statistically being the dominant part of the population that does the breeding.   Sure, there will b e a few mature bucks and they will do some breeding, but, they won't be able to do it all. 

3pt or better does nothing to increase 4.5 yr old animals in the population and permanently increase buck to doe ratio's, if it did, Eastern Wa state would have big bucks running all around it and buck to doe ratio's of 25 or better.......but we don't, even with drastically shortened seasons, and a 3 pt minimum rule that has been in effect for years.

the real problem with 3 pt or better rules is:  "how do you get rid of them, once you have them?"  that is the problem the WDFW have..........the 3 pt rule does very little to help the overall herd, and probably actually hurts it in the long run.  But, what happens if you want to get rid of the rule and go to a new management scheme?  What do you think is going to happen the first year???   You are going to have a precipitous drop in the buck to doe ratio because if you open it up without restrictions, almost all of the 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old deer are going to get harvested.

if you want to achieve better age structure in mule deer bucks, you have to prevent people from shooting mature bucks.......you do that through limited entry type hunts, physically demanding or remote habitat,  or by restricting harvest to 2 pt or less.

   

 

[Curly]

 

[boneaddict]

can't be as long winded but the three point or better rules have helped tremendously.  Its not a cure all, and some other management techniques need to be employed such as a youth 2 point season or something.  But from the standpoint of hours out in the sticks over a period of time,  it has hands down been a positive. 

[boneaddict]

by the way. I'd love to see 4 point or better, draw only for 3 or 2 points such as a management buck draw.

[Sneaky]

We're pretty screwed either way it seems. 3 point minimum I think has helped in a lot of ways, but especially in areas with high numbers  of hunters,   there are some MONSTER two points running around spreading their genes. High numbers of hunters create a situation where no one method of management are really going to tie up all loose ends, in my opinion. If they opened it for any buck, the little ones would likely get whacked opening morning and the buck to doe ratio would be back in the toilet. If they have antler restrictions, the bucks that don't meet the criteria will survive, spreading their genes and creating more defecto-bucks that can't be touched. These permits seem to me like a good idea, but I think they should try a 2-point minimum system instead. A previous post stated some department figure like 90% of 1.5 year olds with 3 points get whacked. If that burden was spread out to encompass two points, then people who shoot little 3 points would burn their tags on some of the defecto-deer as well, instead of all on the little bucks with potential. Meat hunters get more of what they want, trophy hunters have less untouchable two points spreading their bad genes to worry about.   

[bankwalker]

well in the units i hunt, 335, 336, 328, 340 before the 3pt rule we would see alot of bucks. 90% of the bucks we would see were 3pt or better. due the the fact that most hunters (meat hunters) would take the first legal buck they seen and be happy with the season. having that much pressure and that much shooting through out the season got the biggers bucks intune with what was going on and they would hit the back country.

then comes the 3pt min, the younger bucks go a few years without pressure. they grow dumb to the hunting season. then we take away the 3pt min, there will be alot of young bucks taken. maybe it will be a good thing, maybe it will be bad. idk.

personaly i would love the chance to take a monster 2pt.

in my years of hunting you could really see the affect of the 3pt or better rule after a few years. but for now i think it has taken its toll in the units i listed above. now almost all bucks i see in those given units are 3pt or smaller, and the 3pts and 4pts i do see are NOt mature bucks. antler growth is pathetic at best on alot of the mature bucks i do see.


they should place an any buck change for a couple years and see where that gets us. give a chance to get alot of the weaker bucks to be taken out of the herds. and get rid of alot of they bucks that wont get bigger then 2pt's. 

THEN. make the eastern...at least central washington units permit only. AND 4pt or better.

[boneaddict]

funny how many opinions there are

[muleyguy]

"can't be as long winded but the three point or better rules have helped tremendously."

 They did help, but, that was because they were put into place after the horrible winter kills of 1992/93 and 1996 when the populations, especially the bigger buck populations were decimated.  So, you were coming off a very low base of buck to doe ratio and mature bucks in the population.  So, the rule change looked like it made a big difference, and it did, in the very short run.

don't get me wrong, I believe the 3pt or better rule has its place, but, its place is not of a long term management strategy.  Its place should be used short term following times of heavy winter kill because it does do a good job of quickly restoring buck to doe ratio's because it instantly protects an age class (1.5 yrs old) that next year.  After these winters lets assume you had only 5 bucks per 100 does survive, but, previously to that, the average was 20/100.  3pt or better will help in quickly getting back up to those previous averages.

I am pretty sure the reason you are seeing a change has nothing to do with the 3 pt rule, rather, the fact that the hunting seasons have become so restrictive.  This would be especially true in the migratory units.  The general season in the Okanogon used to go to November 5th.  Goldendale used to go Nov 13th.  Like I said earlier, if the 3 pt rule was that effective over the long run, we would have great buck/doe ratio's and lots of mature animals in the population, and, we don't in WA.  I know that you have had success finding mature animals in this state, but, as an average across the state, WA is the poorest of all western states for mature buck's and buck to doe ratio's.

[bankwalker]

people just need to get deeper and higher up in those migratory units to find those deer.

[270Shooter]

What they should do is open up most of the mule deer units for 2 point minumum with short seasons(like we already have! ) for a few years. Hopefully this will take a lot of the 2 point genes out of the gene pool. Obviously there will still be nice bucks taken and some small yearlings also, but a lot of people tend to shoot the first legal buck they see, which most likely would be a 2 point in areas with high 2 point densities.

Then after 2 or 3 years of 2 point minimum they should switch to 4 point minumum with longer seasons. This should give the younger bucks a chance to grow larger racks. I believe success rates will be down with a 4 point restiction and people will be unhappy. But longer seasons should make up for the lower success rates.

I am just throwing ideas around.  

[muleyguy]

"due the the fact that most hunters (meat hunters) would take the first legal buck they seen and be happy with the season."

this is exactly the problem;  these guys stay in the field longer, because it takes longer to find a 2.5 yr old deer vs a 1.5 yr old deer, and it is much harder to identify a 3 pt, then any legal buck,  and over time, and multiple seasons, they end up stumbling once in awhile into actual mature animals, which slowly erodes the numbers of bigger bucks.  And, this is why 3 pt or better is "popular" is because most people (regardless of what you read on this site and MM) shoot the first legal buck they see.  When all you have shot is spikes and little 2 pts, and now you are shooting 18" 3 pts, you are much happier and think you are shooting mature animals, when, in fact all you are shooting is 2.5 yr old deer.

2 pt or less rules, with "any buck" tags will work EXACTLY like it has with the elk population in the Yakima herd.  But, with the deer populations much higher throughout eastern wa then elk numbers, there could be lots of "any buck" tags given out each year.  I would be willing to bet you could have the opportunity, after good numbers of mature animals were built up in the population, to draw an "any buck" tag every 3rd year or better.

This would fix the age structure in the buck population, and, at the same time afford people the opportunity to hunt every year (for 2 pts) and, every 3 or 4th year for a truly mature animal.

[huntnphool]

Muleyguy, I respect your opinion and you are entitled to voice it. I still disagree on a number of points you made, you need to do a little more research, however I'm not going to get into a pissing match over them. I believe the 3 point rule has and will continue to help the overall health and numbers of the herds, I continue to see it first hand and until I see differently I'm sticking by my own opinion.