Wolves, a good thing?

[DaveMonti]

I think I figured out how this board works:

If someone presents a position which is different than another individual's belief, the presenting person is a liberal, tree hugging anti-hunter who is secretly on this board trying to convince others to believe it's necessary to abolish the 2nd Amendment. 

Did I miss anything? 

[JimmyHoffa]

Wolves will never be the end of hunting...

 That is a left wing political twist Idaho!

 Does our $850,000, Houston resident, wolf consultant Francine Madden teach you these things in those closed door meetings?

No, I learnt that all on my own.

 Likely just be a inherit liberal trait then.

And you've thoroughly supported my opening line in this thread: "Wolves and wolf management are largely symbolic of broader social and political issues in the rural west- which is why there is so much misinformation on both sides."

That misinformation could be the falsehood that wolves will end hunting or the falsehood that wolves have no effect on ungulate populations.  One side will denigrate the liberal leftist wolf huggers, and one side will denigrate the right wing extremists.  The screeching will continue, I'm quite certain of that 

Keep spreading the misinformation! Wolves have already ended or severely limited hunting in different regions/areas which you absolutely can't deny as fact!

Where has hunting ended as a result of wolves?

There have been a number of closures for cow hunting throughout Idaho over the last 5 years... St Joe's, Lolo...
Moose hunting has been suspended in areas of Minnesota and Alaska in the last 5 years at different times....

Slowly but surely it has been happening

Yea because st. Joes and lolo herd declines had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the forests have been overgrown now for 2 decades. Old growth timber is not real great elk habitat


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Old growth is pretty decent/good for elk.  What is not usually great for nearly any species other than bugs is the timber between about 15 years to right before old growth.  My understanding anyways.

[bearpaw]

FACT:  More wolves equals less opportunity for hunters. In many cases significantly less opportunity. In the case of the YNP elk herd it meant closing all the late hunts for elk that used to migrate out of the park before 80% were consumed by wolves!

[mfswallace]

I think I figured out how this board works:

If someone presents a position which is different than another individual's belief, the presenting person is a liberal, tree hugging anti-hunter who is secretly on this board trying to convince others to believe it's necessary to abolish the 2nd Amendment. 

Did I miss anything?

Don't forget about the guys who just like to  

[Kittman]

Too many city boys making assumptions regarding country boy concerns.

[mfswallace]

FACT:  More wolves equals less opportunity for hunters. In many cases significantly less opportunity. In the case of the YNP elk herd it meant closing all the late hunts for elk that used to migrate out of the park before 80% were consumed by wolves!

Another closing of hunting opportunities that idahos will deny or blame on something else or just stick with its not "totally" ended hunting

[buglebrush]

Too many city boys making assumptions regarding country boy concerns.

   This is hilarious, and actually quite true.  You sure don't find the wolf apologists around here.   

[idahohuntr]

It is entirely reasonable and supportable to say that wolves have contributed, in some cases significantly, to reduced hunting opportunity and harvest in specific and discrete areas across some western states.  Usually in the most extreme cases of reduced hunting opportunity there were multiple other factors which also contributed to declines - predominantly habitat loss or degradation and climatic factors (severe winters). 

It is absurd to suggest that wolves will "end hunting" in any state or region.  That is entirely inconsistent with the data on elk harvest in recent years in western states that have wolves. 

Hunters are being played a pawn in many instances to fear this notion that wolves are the "end of hunting"...probably in hopes they will blindly lobby for other interests.

Supporting wolf management and wolf hunting is not incompatible with calling bs on the gross exaggeration that wolves are the "end of hunting".

[Kittman]

Wouldn't it be cool if all the people from out of state who wanted the wolves to be here were also more than willing to help finance the long term management aspect of supporting them at level this state could realistically sustain?  The current wolf "Management" status quo aspect has been a little too corrupt & sticky to deal with realistically now.   It would be a huge obstacle involved to eliminate the liberal & progressive bias associated with this.

If the wolf management policy was adhered to we should have seen them already delisted, and open up our 20xx hunting game regulations pamphlet and see a season for hunting wolves.  But we know that is not going to happen...the management strategy currently in play is all about managing the people first and to a lesser extent...the wolves.

I do not support the Wolf management policies that currently exist.

[buglebrush]

It is entirely reasonable and supportable to say that wolves have contributed, in some cases significantly, to reduced hunting opportunity and harvest in specific and discrete areas across some western states.  Usually in the most extreme cases of reduced hunting opportunity there were multiple other factors which also contributed to declines - predominantly habitat loss or degradation and climatic factors (severe winters). 

It is absurd to suggest that wolves will "end hunting" in any state or region.  That is entirely inconsistent with the data on elk harvest in recent years in western states that have wolves. 

Hunters are being played a pawn in many instances to fear this notion that wolves are the "end of hunting"...probably in hopes they will blindly lobby for other interests.

Supporting wolf management and wolf hunting is not incompatible with calling bs on the gross exaggeration that wolves are the "end of hunting".

Read "Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell.  I believe we will look back one day when most/all elk hunting is special draw only, and realize wolves were the "tipping point" for our ungulate populations.  The area I hunt in Idaho has greatly reduced opportunity, and even fish and game credit Wolves as a major factor. 

I'm not sure why I am even discussing this with you.  I've seen your comments on pretty much every wolf thread, and it is obvious you have made up your mind on the matter.   Sadly I believe history will bear me out that you can have only one of two.  A poorly managed/protected wolf population or OTC elk hunting.  As Washington has shown absolutely no ability to manage predators effectively we are heading for disaster, so yes wolves are NOT a good thing. 

[Special T]

Wolf management in this state? Now thats wishful thinking.

[andrew_in_idaho]

The old growth forests suddenly sprouted up in 5 years and killed the elk, that's rich.

The old growth was already there and the herds were already declining, I'm not saying wolves had nothing to do with it. Adding wolves to the situation was like throwing fuel on the fire, it greatly increased the rate of decline. Since we have had wolf hunting here in Idaho the herds have increased in almost every zone, with the herds in the lolo, st joe, and Selway zones not recovering as quickly due to overgrown and poorly managed habitat. In order to have a thriving elk population you have to manage both predators and habitat


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[andrew_in_idaho]

Wolves will never be the end of hunting...

 That is a left wing political twist Idaho!

 Does our $850,000, Houston resident, wolf consultant Francine Madden teach you these things in those closed door meetings?

No, I learnt that all on my own.

 Likely just be a inherit liberal trait then.

And you've thoroughly supported my opening line in this thread: "Wolves and wolf management are largely symbolic of broader social and political issues in the rural west- which is why there is so much misinformation on both sides."

That misinformation could be the falsehood that wolves will end hunting or the falsehood that wolves have no effect on ungulate populations.  One side will denigrate the liberal leftist wolf huggers, and one side will denigrate the right wing extremists.  The screeching will continue, I'm quite certain of that 

Keep spreading the misinformation! Wolves have already ended or severely limited hunting in different regions/areas which you absolutely can't deny as fact!

Where has hunting ended as a result of wolves?

There have been a number of closures for cow hunting throughout Idaho over the last 5 years... St Joe's, Lolo...
Moose hunting has been suspended in areas of Minnesota and Alaska in the last 5 years at different times....

Slowly but surely it has been happening

Yea because st. Joes and lolo herd declines had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the forests have been overgrown now for 2 decades. Old growth timber is not real great elk habitat


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Old growth is pretty decent/good for elk.  What is not usually great for nearly any species other than bugs is the timber between about 15 years to right before old growth.  My understanding anyways.

Old growth is good bedding and security habitat, but the canopy tends to block out the sunlight needed to grow nutrient rich food plants for the elk. You need a healthy mixture of age ranges of forest to provide the good security/bedding cover and more open new growth be it by logging or fire for feeding areas


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[idahohuntr]

Well stated Andrew. 

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[buglebrush]

Well stated Andrew. 

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I agree, but that doesn't negate the impact of wolves.   You act like the RAPID decline in elk populations had more to do with the GRADUAL changes in habitat than over predation.   Funny how areas where wolf numbers are reduced see a corresponding increase in ungulates.  Nobody is saying habitat doesn't matter,  but i guarantee you wolves are killing way more elk a lot faster than any gradual habitat change.   

The title of this thread is "wolves, a good thing"  The answer is unequivocally NO!!!! Why don't you simply grow a pair and admit you think the answer is yes?