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Author Topic: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?  (Read 11979 times)

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2016, 04:02:28 PM »
Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

Does habitat play into that do you think?

I'd guess so, along with man made changes such as highways, farms/crops, and logging. I hunted a ranch between St John/Endicott for a couple years and the owner told me that when he was a kid, the area was almost 100% mule deer, hardly ever saw a whitetail. Now it's overrun with whitetails and the mule deer population is way down. Changes in farming practices could be a big reason. He also said whitetails are way more aggressive and possessive of territory.
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Online Jonathan_S

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2016, 04:23:26 PM »
Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

1800 tags not 1000. Big difference.


 :yeah: I meant to put 2,000  :chuckle:
Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.

Offline sumpnz

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2016, 04:28:40 PM »
The only competition I could see would be when both species are occupying the winter range. Elk are grazers, grass specifically, and will resort to browse when grass becomes inaccessible. Deer are browsers, their rumen size is too small to nutritiously digest grass. Deer also forage on forbs advantageously. Most would see deer in a grass field and think they're eating it, really they're eating the weeds and other flowering plants. I don't see how elk are out competing deer, if that were the case then Colorado would certainly be void of deer.

Yep.  The blacktails I see in my yard are eating the clover, dandelions, blackberry leaves, etc.  Occasionally I'll see them take a little grass, but that's a very small percentage of their feed. 

Whereas the elk that also come through are feeding almost exclusively on the grass.  And thrashing the smaller trees with their antlers.

Offline csaaphill

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2016, 05:05:34 PM »
http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf

Pages 12 and 13 are kind of interesting. Colorado published in 1999 so outdated
This does actually show a correlation though, even though a bit outdated. It does show that elk are now in areas they were not previously and now the Mule deer in those areas are in decline. I'd say while I do agree with some of the whitetail being the culprit I'm more inclined to believe this study.
you even see that down in the south eastern corner of the state, areas that were primarily steep draws, and lots of what's commonly called buck brush and other cover and browse are now wheat fields.
I know too that the last decade or so there's been a push to kill or control what is called star thistle. They've been using Goats now I guess for the last few years to control this stuff as well. I know it can kill mule deer because those thorns get caught in it throat or intestines and kill them from the inside out.
While it may not be just one single factor in all this I believe it's related to all or most of what is being discussed.
Whitetails, Elk, habitat loss/change, and other factors as well. :twocents:
"When my bow falls, so shall the world. When me heart ceases to pump blood to my body, it will all come crashing down. As a hunter, we are bound by duty, nay, bound by our very soul to this world. When a hunter dies we feel it, we sense it, and the world trembles with sorrow. When I die, so shall the world, from the shock of loosing such a great part of ones soul." Ezekiel, Okeanos Hunter

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2016, 06:14:48 PM »
It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

 Elk are a non factor in the decline of the Methow herd! Poor management is the primary cause in the decline....period! Increased doe permits solely based on speculation, increased late permits when the bucks are most vulnerable, piss poor to zero preditor management as examples. Throw in a couple back to back years with pretty big fires, plus a moderately bad winter, I don't think anyone should be surprised the herd is suffering.

 Take care of these issues and the extremely low number of elk in the area wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. :twocents:

I absolutely agree with phool here :yeah: There have been elk boppin around the Methow for awhile, even back when the deer herd was in its prime! I remember bumping into about 40 head up around Early Winters about 30 years ago, I have also run into them Up around Andrews creek, Harts pass and up in 30 mile. Predators and the deer herd not being the priority of the dept are the 2 major factors in the decline of the muley population,throw in some haymakers from mother nature(fires, draught,etc) along with mis-management of the herd and it equels a herd that continues to decline....my opinion and my  :twocents:

Offline badnewskruse

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2016, 06:23:32 PM »
we need to bring hounds back. that would help tremendously i think

Offline MtnMuley

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2016, 07:37:30 PM »
We need to can Scott Fitkin before anything positive can happen. As far as elk having an impact on muleys here, that's nearly comical.

Offline Stickerbush

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
Super interesting, tag
Coastal Perspective.

Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2016, 08:42:12 PM »
Wild fires and winter kill is a constant period and we can't control that
Problem might be
Hunter population growing
Better camo
Better optics
Better range finders
Longer range shooting guns
Oh ya hunter population

Offline MtnMuley

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2016, 08:52:50 PM »
Definitely a lot bigger hunter population, better optics, and most importantly a lot better camo over the last couple years. You nailed it

Offline UBA

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2016, 09:20:57 PM »
I think the whitetail are way worse than the elk. 90% of the whitetail never leave the wintering grounds. Once the muleys do make it there the food has been browsed all year. Thus lowering the winter carrying capacity and leading to a larger chance of winter die off . I say leave whitetail season open lots longer.

Offline jackelope

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2016, 08:39:05 AM »
Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?
I knew of guys willing to bring semi truck loads up there on their own dime at the time.
:dunno:
:fire.:

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My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline csaaphill

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Re: Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2016, 09:21:33 PM »
Wild fires and winter kill is a constant period and we can't control that
Problem might be
Hunter population growing
Better camo
Better optics
Better range finders
Longer range shooting guns
Oh ya hunter population
No hunting numbers have dropped significantly since the 1970's. You might see a bit of a rise and fall in general numbers but rest assured total hunter numbers in all states has dropped significantly.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/sports/13deer.html
"When my bow falls, so shall the world. When me heart ceases to pump blood to my body, it will all come crashing down. As a hunter, we are bound by duty, nay, bound by our very soul to this world. When a hunter dies we feel it, we sense it, and the world trembles with sorrow. When I die, so shall the world, from the shock of loosing such a great part of ones soul." Ezekiel, Okeanos Hunter

 


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