Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?

[OutHouse]

It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

[Rainier10]

Interesting thought, tagging along to see what others have to say.

[Henrydog]

RMEF had a article on this theory several years ago written by a Prof @ Oregon State off the top of my head.  It was a lack of carrying capacity and Elk are out completing the "timid" mule deer.  Before Euro settlement Elk were mainly Plains animals.

[Firedogg]

I don't think we are losing mule deer to elk, they forage on different shrubs and the elk travel more.

What I think is affecting mule deer populations more is pressure put on by an ever expanding white tail population. We are seeing whitetails in areas they were never in 15 years ago or longer. In areas at the time we could honestly say there are no whitetail here.

 An example is areas 175/181. You used to see the whitetails primarily in the farmlands and into the NF maybe up to 1/2 mile in. They would avoid the deep draws and canyons on the edges of the farmland. Mule deer in the farmlands would move into those non-whitetail draws and canyons. but stayed separated from the WT. Deep in the NF you would find all your mule deer, in the steep canyons and draws there would only be mule deer and elk.

  Now you find the whitetail have expanded not only fully into the NF and tops of canyons, but in the steep canyons where traditionally in the past you would only find mule deer and elk.  This year I had whitetails coming up out of Hell's Canyon in places there were never whitetail.
  Might be time to increase the whitetail harvest in certain areas or elevation levels to reduce the competition pushing mule deer numbers down.

[BGLEMIN]

The only competition I could see would be when both species are occupying the winter range. Elk are grazers, grass specifically, and will resort to browse when grass becomes inaccessible. Deer are browsers, their rumen size is too small to nutritiously digest grass. Deer also forage on forbs advantageously. Most would see deer in a grass field and think they're eating it, really they're eating the weeds and other flowering plants. I don't see how elk are out competing deer, if that were the case then Colorado would certainly be void of deer.

[huntnphool]

It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

 Elk are a non factor in the decline of the Methow herd! Poor management is the primary cause in the decline....period! Increased doe permits solely based on speculation, increased late permits when the bucks are most vulnerable, piss poor to zero preditor management as examples. Throw in a couple back to back years with pretty big fires, plus a moderately bad winter, I don't think anyone should be surprised the herd is suffering.

 Take care of these issues and the extremely low number of elk in the area wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

[mburrows]

Id personally say no.  elk and deer have different diets for the most part and do not compete. Washingtons mule deer management plan  (can be downloaded off the wdfw website) backs this up with some science.

This is just my opinion...

[Jonathan_S]

Interesting how some of the best herds in the world of both species coexist in other states 

[Moe the Sleaze]

This is what I was taught many moons ago:
Elk = "grazers", normally feed on various grasses.  Deer = "browsers", usually feed on shrubs, bushes, flowers, etc.  The only time they might compete is deep snow, when the elk can't get to their grass and are forced to browse instead.  The search by each species for their preferred food is directly responsible for many of their migration patterns.

I would downplay the competition for food as a factor.  Deer and elk can co-exist.

[TriggerMike]

I'm pretty sure elk were native to eastern WA then they were extirpated during the mid to late 1800snd then ultimately RE-introduced in the 1930s. Not just introduced in the 1900s. Elk are native to every state in the lower 48.

[jackelope]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the still very rare elk sighting in the Methow is not contributing at all, whatsoever, to declining mule deer numbers.
Habitat loss is. The lions are. The wolves are. Overhunting is. The shooting of does is. But the elk are not.
Elk may contribute to a decline in mule deer numbers, that struggle between those 2 creatures is real, but there are not even close to enough elk in the Methow to cause issue with mule deer populations.
With that said, that's the whole reason places like Swakane, Entiat, etc are any elk during their seasons....The intent of that is to keep the elk numbers as low as possible. Look at the harvest statistics.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

[Jonathan_S]

  there would have to be a hell of a lot more ungulates in the Methow for competition to be a factor. Not many places above carrying capacity in this state. Plenty of doe and cow tags though. Go figure

[OutHouse]

Id personally say no.  elk and deer have different diets for the most part and do not compete. Washingtons mule deer management plan  (can be downloaded off the wdfw website) backs this up with some science.

This is just my opinion...

Thanks for that reference I will have to check it our and admittedly haven't done a ton of research.

[bobcat]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

[huntnphool]

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.

 Agreed

[Henrydog]

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf

Pages 12 and 13 are kind of interesting. Colorado published in 1999 so outdated

[OutHouse]

RMEF had a article on this theory several years ago written by a Prof @ Oregon State off the top of my head.  It was a lack of carrying capacity and Elk are out completing the "timid" mule deer.  Before Euro settlement Elk were mainly Plains animals.

Oh wow sounds like there are opposing theories on this. Thanks for the source!

[OutHouse]

These are all good comments that have helped my understanding. Thank you guys. With regard to whitetails, I should have made this thread about them!

In the upper Methow valley (west of Winthrop) there were always some whitetail when I was a kid. Now, 75% of the deer I see in lower elevations are whitetail. This old fella named Bob lives on the road where my place is. He said that prior to the existence of the North Cascades Highway, there was a mule deer herd that would group up and congregate in the valley right near the road that goes to that god awful Mazama Country Store. He said they would stay for the majority of the winter unless snow got too deep. He would also get nostalgic about the mule deer bucks that used to be around. He told me he'd see several 25-30" bucks routinely right by his house!

[Stein]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

  Sounds reasonable to me.  Another thing to keep in mind is that natural cycles exist and there isn't a "normal" amount of animals for an area.  Booms and busts, just like anything else.

[jackelope]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

Does habitat play into that do you think?

[Henrydog]

I personally don't believe elk have anything to do with Mule deer declines.  I agree whitetail populations have exploded in the last 20 years in Wa.  So have Moose.  But that is reflective I think of the change in the landscape.  (less logging and more development in arid ranges)  As mention before Deer are browsers, without logging there is not much for them to browse on anymore

[buckcanyonlodge]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.

When it comes to food , the mule deer dominate the whitetail. I have watched yearling mule deer chase whitetail bucks away from a food source. Whitetail do not out compete mule deer for a food source. I see it 365 day a year.

[buglebrush]

Interesting how some of the best herds in the world of both species coexist in other states 

Exactly.  Somehow Washington thinks it can refuse to manage predators without impacting prey...

[theleo]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

If fire was a contributing factor then mule deer should be doing better than they are. Fire was a regular factor in the eco system before Europeans showed up, only after they arrived did it get largely removed do to a very strict policy of fire suppression. A policy partly responsible for the massive fuel loads we see in the forests now.

[bobcat]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

If fire was a contributing factor then mule deer should be doing better than they are. Fire was a regular factor in the eco system before Europeans showed up, only after they arrived did it get largely removed do to a very strict policy of fire suppression. A policy partly responsible for the massive fuel loads we see in the forests now.

There are all kinds of factors that are responsible for habitat becoming more suitable for elk and less suitable for mule deer. That was just one example. But yes, generally a lack of fire in the forests is a major reason for the decline of mule deer. But fires that burn up the winter range don't help, at least in the short term.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Definitely think elk are a non-issue for mule deer in the Methow, or anywhere in the east Cascades north of Highway 2.  There are almost certainly less mule deer than there would be in the Colockum and Yakima elk herds if elk numbers were lower.  There were definitely elk in eastern Washington pre-European settlement, just patchy distribution. 

Mule deer do exhibit behavioral avoidance of elk as a preference, but coexist with elk under most conditions rangewide.  It is rare, outside of a few parks (e.g., Rocky Mountain, Banff, Grand Teton), for elk densities to be high enough to have population-level impacts on mule deer due to habitat alteration.  Where it occurs, commonalities include limited winter range, high elk densities and deep snow.  The long migrations to shrub-dominated winter ranges by mule deer in northwestern Wyoming likely evolved to reduce competition from elk during the limiting time of year, elk migrated shorter distances to grass-dominated winter ranges closer to the mountain foothills.

In north central Washington, including the Methow, social tolerance is much lower than habitat carrying capacity under normal conditions.  Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

[Jonathan_S]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

[huntnphool]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

 Why couldn't have they simply waited to December or the first of the year to see what the weather brought, rather than making their decision while it was still 55* in the area?

[MtnMuley]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

1800 tags not 1000. Big difference.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

Does habitat play into that do you think?

I'd guess so, along with man made changes such as highways, farms/crops, and logging. I hunted a ranch between St John/Endicott for a couple years and the owner told me that when he was a kid, the area was almost 100% mule deer, hardly ever saw a whitetail. Now it's overrun with whitetails and the mule deer population is way down. Changes in farming practices could be a big reason. He also said whitetails are way more aggressive and possessive of territory.

[Jonathan_S]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

1800 tags not 1000. Big difference.

  I meant to put 2,000 

[sumpnz]

The only competition I could see would be when both species are occupying the winter range. Elk are grazers, grass specifically, and will resort to browse when grass becomes inaccessible. Deer are browsers, their rumen size is too small to nutritiously digest grass. Deer also forage on forbs advantageously. Most would see deer in a grass field and think they're eating it, really they're eating the weeds and other flowering plants. I don't see how elk are out competing deer, if that were the case then Colorado would certainly be void of deer.

Yep.  The blacktails I see in my yard are eating the clover, dandelions, blackberry leaves, etc.  Occasionally I'll see them take a little grass, but that's a very small percentage of their feed. 

Whereas the elk that also come through are feeding almost exclusively on the grass.  And thrashing the smaller trees with their antlers.

[csaaphill]

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf

Pages 12 and 13 are kind of interesting. Colorado published in 1999 so outdated

This does actually show a correlation though, even though a bit outdated. It does show that elk are now in areas they were not previously and now the Mule deer in those areas are in decline. I'd say while I do agree with some of the whitetail being the culprit I'm more inclined to believe this study.
you even see that down in the south eastern corner of the state, areas that were primarily steep draws, and lots of what's commonly called buck brush and other cover and browse are now wheat fields.
I know too that the last decade or so there's been a push to kill or control what is called star thistle. They've been using Goats now I guess for the last few years to control this stuff as well. I know it can kill mule deer because those thorns get caught in it throat or intestines and kill them from the inside out.
While it may not be just one single factor in all this I believe it's related to all or most of what is being discussed.
Whitetails, Elk, habitat loss/change, and other factors as well.

[bigmacc]

It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

 Elk are a non factor in the decline of the Methow herd! Poor management is the primary cause in the decline....period! Increased doe permits solely based on speculation, increased late permits when the bucks are most vulnerable, piss poor to zero preditor management as examples. Throw in a couple back to back years with pretty big fires, plus a moderately bad winter, I don't think anyone should be surprised the herd is suffering.

 Take care of these issues and the extremely low number of elk in the area wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

I absolutely agree with phool here There have been elk boppin around the Methow for awhile, even back when the deer herd was in its prime! I remember bumping into about 40 head up around Early Winters about 30 years ago, I have also run into them Up around Andrews creek, Harts pass and up in 30 mile. Predators and the deer herd not being the priority of the dept are the 2 major factors in the decline of the muley population,throw in some haymakers from mother nature(fires, draught,etc) along with mis-management of the herd and it equels a herd that continues to decline....my opinion and my 

[badnewskruse]

we need to bring hounds back. that would help tremendously i think

[MtnMuley]

We need to can Scott Fitkin before anything positive can happen. As far as elk having an impact on muleys here, that's nearly comical.

[Stickerbush]

Super interesting, tag

[Sakko300wsm]

Wild fires and winter kill is a constant period and we can't control that
Problem might be
Hunter population growing
Better camo
Better optics
Better range finders
Longer range shooting guns
Oh ya hunter population

[MtnMuley]

Definitely a lot bigger hunter population, better optics, and most importantly a lot better camo over the last couple years. You nailed it

[UBA]

I think the whitetail are way worse than the elk. 90% of the whitetail never leave the wintering grounds. Once the muleys do make it there the food has been browsed all year. Thus lowering the winter carrying capacity and leading to a larger chance of winter die off . I say leave whitetail season open lots longer.

[jackelope]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

I knew of guys willing to bring semi truck loads up there on their own dime at the time.

[csaaphill]

Wild fires and winter kill is a constant period and we can't control that
Problem might be
Hunter population growing
Better camo
Better optics
Better range finders
Longer range shooting guns
Oh ya hunter population

No hunting numbers have dropped significantly since the 1970's. You might see a bit of a rise and fall in general numbers but rest assured total hunter numbers in all states has dropped significantly.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/sports/13deer.html