Free: Contests & Raffles.
It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers? The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?
Id personally say no. elk and deer have different diets for the most part and do not compete. Washingtons mule deer management plan (can be downloaded off the wdfw website) backs this up with some science. This is just my opinion...
If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.
RMEF had a article on this theory several years ago written by a Prof @ Oregon State off the top of my head. It was a lack of carrying capacity and Elk are out completing the "timid" mule deer. Before Euro settlement Elk were mainly Plains animals.
What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.
Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........NotIf anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.
Interesting how some of the best herds in the world of both species coexist in other states
Quote from: bobcat on November 03, 2016, 01:39:57 PMWhat does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.If fire was a contributing factor then mule deer should be doing better than they are. Fire was a regular factor in the eco system before Europeans showed up, only after they arrived did it get largely removed do to a very strict policy of fire suppression. A policy partly responsible for the massive fuel loads we see in the forests now.
Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting. The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.
Quote from: DOUBLELUNG on November 03, 2016, 03:20:24 PM Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting. The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?
Quote from: Sitka_Blacktail on November 03, 2016, 01:17:36 PMYah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........NotIf anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. Does habitat play into that do you think?
Quote from: Jonathan_S on November 03, 2016, 03:33:45 PMQuote from: DOUBLELUNG on November 03, 2016, 03:20:24 PM Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting. The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?1800 tags not 1000. Big difference.
The only competition I could see would be when both species are occupying the winter range. Elk are grazers, grass specifically, and will resort to browse when grass becomes inaccessible. Deer are browsers, their rumen size is too small to nutritiously digest grass. Deer also forage on forbs advantageously. Most would see deer in a grass field and think they're eating it, really they're eating the weeds and other flowering plants. I don't see how elk are out competing deer, if that were the case then Colorado would certainly be void of deer.
http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf Pages 12 and 13 are kind of interesting. Colorado published in 1999 so outdated
Quote from: OutHouse on November 03, 2016, 12:00:55 PMIt is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers? The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts? Elk are a non factor in the decline of the Methow herd! Poor management is the primary cause in the decline....period! Increased doe permits solely based on speculation, increased late permits when the bucks are most vulnerable, piss poor to zero preditor management as examples. Throw in a couple back to back years with pretty big fires, plus a moderately bad winter, I don't think anyone should be surprised the herd is suffering. Take care of these issues and the extremely low number of elk in the area wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.
Wild fires and winter kill is a constant period and we can't control that Problem might beHunter population growing Better camoBetter opticsBetter range findersLonger range shooting gunsOh ya hunter population