Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?

[huntnphool]

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.

 Agreed

[Henrydog]

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf

Pages 12 and 13 are kind of interesting. Colorado published in 1999 so outdated

[OutHouse]

RMEF had a article on this theory several years ago written by a Prof @ Oregon State off the top of my head.  It was a lack of carrying capacity and Elk are out completing the "timid" mule deer.  Before Euro settlement Elk were mainly Plains animals.

Oh wow sounds like there are opposing theories on this. Thanks for the source!

[OutHouse]

These are all good comments that have helped my understanding. Thank you guys. With regard to whitetails, I should have made this thread about them!

In the upper Methow valley (west of Winthrop) there were always some whitetail when I was a kid. Now, 75% of the deer I see in lower elevations are whitetail. This old fella named Bob lives on the road where my place is. He said that prior to the existence of the North Cascades Highway, there was a mule deer herd that would group up and congregate in the valley right near the road that goes to that god awful Mazama Country Store. He said they would stay for the majority of the winter unless snow got too deep. He would also get nostalgic about the mule deer bucks that used to be around. He told me he'd see several 25-30" bucks routinely right by his house!

[Stein]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

  Sounds reasonable to me.  Another thing to keep in mind is that natural cycles exist and there isn't a "normal" amount of animals for an area.  Booms and busts, just like anything else.

[jackelope]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

Does habitat play into that do you think?

[Henrydog]

I personally don't believe elk have anything to do with Mule deer declines.  I agree whitetail populations have exploded in the last 20 years in Wa.  So have Moose.  But that is reflective I think of the change in the landscape.  (less logging and more development in arid ranges)  As mention before Deer are browsers, without logging there is not much for them to browse on anymore

[buckcanyonlodge]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer.

When it comes to food , the mule deer dominate the whitetail. I have watched yearling mule deer chase whitetail bucks away from a food source. Whitetail do not out compete mule deer for a food source. I see it 365 day a year.

[buglebrush]

Interesting how some of the best herds in the world of both species coexist in other states 

Exactly.  Somehow Washington thinks it can refuse to manage predators without impacting prey...

[theleo]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

If fire was a contributing factor then mule deer should be doing better than they are. Fire was a regular factor in the eco system before Europeans showed up, only after they arrived did it get largely removed do to a very strict policy of fire suppression. A policy partly responsible for the massive fuel loads we see in the forests now.

[bobcat]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.

If fire was a contributing factor then mule deer should be doing better than they are. Fire was a regular factor in the eco system before Europeans showed up, only after they arrived did it get largely removed do to a very strict policy of fire suppression. A policy partly responsible for the massive fuel loads we see in the forests now.

There are all kinds of factors that are responsible for habitat becoming more suitable for elk and less suitable for mule deer. That was just one example. But yes, generally a lack of fire in the forests is a major reason for the decline of mule deer. But fires that burn up the winter range don't help, at least in the short term.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Definitely think elk are a non-issue for mule deer in the Methow, or anywhere in the east Cascades north of Highway 2.  There are almost certainly less mule deer than there would be in the Colockum and Yakima elk herds if elk numbers were lower.  There were definitely elk in eastern Washington pre-European settlement, just patchy distribution. 

Mule deer do exhibit behavioral avoidance of elk as a preference, but coexist with elk under most conditions rangewide.  It is rare, outside of a few parks (e.g., Rocky Mountain, Banff, Grand Teton), for elk densities to be high enough to have population-level impacts on mule deer due to habitat alteration.  Where it occurs, commonalities include limited winter range, high elk densities and deep snow.  The long migrations to shrub-dominated winter ranges by mule deer in northwestern Wyoming likely evolved to reduce competition from elk during the limiting time of year, elk migrated shorter distances to grass-dominated winter ranges closer to the mountain foothills.

In north central Washington, including the Methow, social tolerance is much lower than habitat carrying capacity under normal conditions.  Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

[Jonathan_S]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

[huntnphool]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

 Why couldn't have they simply waited to December or the first of the year to see what the weather brought, rather than making their decision while it was still 55* in the area?

[MtnMuley]

Mule deer abundance is reduced through legal harvest and illegal harvest (especially around orchards); doe tags are issued long before the habitat becomes limiting.  The 2014 and 2015 fires are definitely an issue as well in the short term, but will favor mule deer habitat long term.

Thanks for the everything you shared. The above quoted is what I was trying to articulate and you said it better than I did. Although habitat is paramount, it never seems like areas are allowed anywhere near carrying capacity. Then when fires hit, the WDFW throws 1,000 emergency doe tags as a first reaction. I said it then and I'll say it now, why couldn't they have solicited for hay and alfalfa donations to supplement the temporarily damaged winter range?

1800 tags not 1000. Big difference.