Are we losing Mule Deer to Elk?

[OutHouse]

It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

[Rainier10]

Interesting thought, tagging along to see what others have to say.

[Henrydog]

RMEF had a article on this theory several years ago written by a Prof @ Oregon State off the top of my head.  It was a lack of carrying capacity and Elk are out completing the "timid" mule deer.  Before Euro settlement Elk were mainly Plains animals.

[Firedogg]

I don't think we are losing mule deer to elk, they forage on different shrubs and the elk travel more.

What I think is affecting mule deer populations more is pressure put on by an ever expanding white tail population. We are seeing whitetails in areas they were never in 15 years ago or longer. In areas at the time we could honestly say there are no whitetail here.

 An example is areas 175/181. You used to see the whitetails primarily in the farmlands and into the NF maybe up to 1/2 mile in. They would avoid the deep draws and canyons on the edges of the farmland. Mule deer in the farmlands would move into those non-whitetail draws and canyons. but stayed separated from the WT. Deep in the NF you would find all your mule deer, in the steep canyons and draws there would only be mule deer and elk.

  Now you find the whitetail have expanded not only fully into the NF and tops of canyons, but in the steep canyons where traditionally in the past you would only find mule deer and elk.  This year I had whitetails coming up out of Hell's Canyon in places there were never whitetail.
  Might be time to increase the whitetail harvest in certain areas or elevation levels to reduce the competition pushing mule deer numbers down.

[BGLEMIN]

The only competition I could see would be when both species are occupying the winter range. Elk are grazers, grass specifically, and will resort to browse when grass becomes inaccessible. Deer are browsers, their rumen size is too small to nutritiously digest grass. Deer also forage on forbs advantageously. Most would see deer in a grass field and think they're eating it, really they're eating the weeds and other flowering plants. I don't see how elk are out competing deer, if that were the case then Colorado would certainly be void of deer.

[huntnphool]

It is my understanding that the east side of the state did not have elk prior to their introduction during the early 20th century. We all talk about wolves, other predators, fires, etc.. as reasons for declining mule deer numbers, but how much has the introduction of elk caused declining mule numbers?

The reason I ask this is because elk seem to be spreading throughout the eastern half of the state which is certain habitat/forage competition for the mules. I talked to a kid at Hank's in Twisp and he told me that over the last 10 years he has found increasing numbers of elk sheds in the Methow valley. Two years ago my brother and cousin saw a cow elk just west of Winthrop about 10 miles from the Mazama area. I was told by some locals that elk were extremely rare in the Methow until recently. Any thoughts?

 Elk are a non factor in the decline of the Methow herd! Poor management is the primary cause in the decline....period! Increased doe permits solely based on speculation, increased late permits when the bucks are most vulnerable, piss poor to zero preditor management as examples. Throw in a couple back to back years with pretty big fires, plus a moderately bad winter, I don't think anyone should be surprised the herd is suffering.

 Take care of these issues and the extremely low number of elk in the area wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

[mburrows]

Id personally say no.  elk and deer have different diets for the most part and do not compete. Washingtons mule deer management plan  (can be downloaded off the wdfw website) backs this up with some science.

This is just my opinion...

[Jonathan_S]

Interesting how some of the best herds in the world of both species coexist in other states 

[Moe the Sleaze]

This is what I was taught many moons ago:
Elk = "grazers", normally feed on various grasses.  Deer = "browsers", usually feed on shrubs, bushes, flowers, etc.  The only time they might compete is deep snow, when the elk can't get to their grass and are forced to browse instead.  The search by each species for their preferred food is directly responsible for many of their migration patterns.

I would downplay the competition for food as a factor.  Deer and elk can co-exist.

[TriggerMike]

I'm pretty sure elk were native to eastern WA then they were extirpated during the mid to late 1800snd then ultimately RE-introduced in the 1930s. Not just introduced in the 1900s. Elk are native to every state in the lower 48.

[jackelope]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the still very rare elk sighting in the Methow is not contributing at all, whatsoever, to declining mule deer numbers.
Habitat loss is. The lions are. The wolves are. Overhunting is. The shooting of does is. But the elk are not.
Elk may contribute to a decline in mule deer numbers, that struggle between those 2 creatures is real, but there are not even close to enough elk in the Methow to cause issue with mule deer populations.
With that said, that's the whole reason places like Swakane, Entiat, etc are any elk during their seasons....The intent of that is to keep the elk numbers as low as possible. Look at the harvest statistics.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Yah, Look at how bad the elk in Colorado have hurt the mule deer population there. .........Not

If anything, in Washington, I'd guess whitetails are out competing mule deer. 

[Jonathan_S]

  there would have to be a hell of a lot more ungulates in the Methow for competition to be a factor. Not many places above carrying capacity in this state. Plenty of doe and cow tags though. Go figure

[OutHouse]

Id personally say no.  elk and deer have different diets for the most part and do not compete. Washingtons mule deer management plan  (can be downloaded off the wdfw website) backs this up with some science.

This is just my opinion...

Thanks for that reference I will have to check it our and admittedly haven't done a ton of research.

[bobcat]

What does happen in many areas is the habitat has changed and now favors elk. Fires are a big contributor to this. Prime mule deer winter range gets burned up. No more bitterbrush, sagebrush, etc, that the deer rely on. But the grass comes back really fast and benefits elk but not so much the deer. Same sort of thing happens with logging, at least on the west side of the state. After clearcutting the timber companies spray herbicides to kill everything. They plant their trees and you have nothing but trees and grass. Great for elk but not so much for deer.