28 Desert Unit bucks taken by Yakima Indian Nation rumor or truth?

[PlateauNDN]

Ok, it's break time. There are a lot of tribal members that strictly hunt the rez and a big portion of my family does. If you look at a map of our ceded lands that will give you an idea of the territory at which we lived, hunted, fished and gathered other traditional foods/medicines. I say idea because our U & A territories extend beyond that.

So, within my family we gathered, fished and hunted over large areas and I'm continuing that with my children. There are areas that I had not hunted or gathered and I'm always looking for new areas for many reasons. The food in one area may reach ripeness sooner or later then one area, food may be ready to gather at different times so I follow the food. Hunting, I spread myself over areas I was shown by family and then explore and learn new areas all the time as I don't want to have a large or adverse impact on game in that area.

The mentality I have is its all within our boundaries and It's traditional/ancestral grounds then I will go there. If we do not exercise our rights within our traditional/ancestral lands what's to stop the State or Gov't from taking it away or saying you didn't go there anymore or utilize it anymore therefore you lose any rights to it, such as imminent domain.

[jackelope]

Ok, it's break time. There are a lot of tribal members that strictly hunt the rez and a big portion of my family does. If you look at a map of our ceded lands that will give you an idea of the territory at which we lived, hunted, fished and gathered other traditional foods/medicines. I say idea because our U & A territories extend beyond that.

So, within my family we gathered, fished and hunted over large areas and I'm continuing that with my children. There are areas that I had not hunted or gathered and I'm always looking for new areas for many reasons. The food in one area may reach ripeness sooner or later then one area, food may be ready to gather at different times so I follow the food. Hunting, I spread myself over areas I was shown by family and then explore and learn new areas all the time as I don't want to have a large or adverse impact on game in that area.

The mentality I have is its all within our boundaries and It's traditional/ancestral grounds then I will go there. If we do not exercise our rights within our traditional/ancestral lands what's to stop the State or Gov't from taking it away or saying you didn't go there anymore or utilize it anymore therefore you lose any rights to it, such as imminent domain.

Thanks for the response. I was specifically referring to the areas on the reservation where I, for example, can't hunt as a white guy. Is there a lot of deer and elk hunting that goes on there by tribal members?
 

[Rainier10]

So can I assume that if "a lot" of members "strictly hunt the rez" that few hunt off of the rez?

Any idea of numbers?  200 hunt the rez and 20 hunt off reservation but on ceded lands?

I do appreciate your responses so far, just trying to quantify it a bit more.  If you can't I understand.

[PlateauNDN]

I answered that jackelope, yes there's deer and elk there and yes tribal members hunt there. I don't know numbers or stats for over 10,000 members when it comes to who does or doesn't hunt on or off the rez.

I met an in-law for the 1st time while hunting a new area a couple years ago. I would say half my family is rez hunting only the other half are both, on and off.

[Rainier10]

I answered that jackelope, yes there's deer and elk there and yes tribal members hunt there. I don't know numbers or stats for over 10,000 members when it comes to who does or doesn't hunt on or off the rez.

I met an in-law for the 1st time while hunting a new area a couple years ago. I would say half my family is rez hunting only the other half are both, on and off.

Thanks as always I really appreciate the dialogue.

[bradleyr001]

Again serious question. The rez is roughly 1.2 million acres in size. Is there no game to be had, is the quality poor, has it been over hunted. Why is there the need to hunt off the rez in quality areas. If its just sustenance hunting why go to the permit only areas. Or is it truly about trophy hunting and not about putting food on the table. Is it an attitude that I can do it so I will do it and no me can stop me.

I'm not proposing to take away rights, I'm just trying to find the common sense approach to hunting area's that, in general are once in a lifetime hunts for the general white man.

It is one of our rights, we can hunt off the Reservation, Im not condoning  go kill everythingn or trophies

You're missing the point... not saying it's not your right... But if things don't change, keep destroying the resource (or standing by and letting others destroy it) you won't have any resources to worry about. The piece of paper your 'right' is printed on will become worthless toilet paper to wipe your butt with. The subject of the 'right' will be destroyed or no longer viable, and thus meaningless. So Indians better get smart and stop feeling like this is an attack on a personal level, it isn't, everyone benefits or fails based on BOTH sides of this equation.

This problem is an absolute issue between Native hunting rights and everyone else's hunting rights, if something isn't done, it won't matter to either side.  We will all just watch reruns of hunting videos on youtube because there won't be any animals to harvest.

Keep sticking to your absolute right and it will become worthless. Management doesn't happen overnight, especially with so many different opinions and points of view, material changes will take years even if started now, this is a long term goal, 10, 15, 20 years from now as a timeline at the earliest if change is started now.

Everyone is going to have to make concessions, even the Indians, or we will just continue "arguing" about what could've been done instead starting work on getting it done.

A few have mentioned taking care of the issues already known; poachers, habitat loss, etc., how has that worked out so far?

Time for a paradigm shift on how to attack this problem.

[Chesapeake]

The mentality I have is its all within our boundaries and It's traditional/ancestral grounds then I will go there. If we do not exercise our rights within our traditional/ancestral lands what's to stop the State or Gov't from taking it away or saying you didn't go there anymore or utilize it anymore therefore you lose any rights to it, such as imminent domain.

This statement echo's my opinion of what's been going on the last several years. There are dip net stands popping up everywhere, many never actually used. Gill net buoys dotting the river just outside the channel, many never seem to have a net. Laying claim to Glenwood, ect....
It seems the Natives have prescribed to the "use it or loose it" mantra and are making a bold attempt to make it appear they are "exercising" everything they believe they have a "right" to. 
It seems its a bit of a shock to the general population because we aren't used to the Natives "exercising" their rights in such a wide spread and visible manner. For as long as I can remember they've been pretty low key. Just a few trashed out boat ramps and encampments along the rivers, only a few Styrofoam blocks anchored along the channels, dip net stands only in key locations and the annual Methow winter range deer road hunt complaints.

[DaveMonti]

I kind of hate to weigh in here, but throughout my career, I've been faced with "problems" continuously that needed to be fixed.  The one thing I learned early on, and it has made me an effective problem solver, is to understand the goal of any solution.  To do that, one needs to understand what the PROBLEM is. 
Everyone states that problems need fixing, the treaties, the natives policing their own, the importance of wildlife vs. shellfish with the WDFW, penalties are not strong enough, the wolves, cougars, bobcats, coyotes, liberals wanting to shut down our public lands, on and on and on.  These problems will never be "fixed" unless everyone understands what impact these problems are creating today.  In other words, in the big picture, what is the problem???

So, start with the set of undesirable conditions that these "problems" are causing.  What is the big problem?  The answer is not "Natives hunt and kill a lot of animals".  If you want to look at it from the other direction, "What does something look like AFTER a solution is implemented?"  And the answer there is not "Natives must follow all the rules like everyone else". 
The answer is "What are you really pissed about?"  My guess is that it's not easy enough for you (and every other hunter) to go out and kill a tasty trophy every time you want to. 
There are MANY reasons for this, so get to work formulating the reasons.  Predators might be one.  The Natives enforcement policies might be another.  WDFW management strategies might be another.  Poachers might be another.  Develop a list of problems that are causing this "undesirable situation" that is making everyone complain.  This is the beginning of the development of a STRATEGY.  Impact analysis tells you what "problems" have the biggest impact on your desired outcome. 

Please remember that in the big picture, what something looks like AFTER the solutions are implemented to remedy the "problems" everyone has identified, it will NOT BE POSSIBLE for everyone to go out and kill a tasty trophy whenever they want.  So, BE REASONABLE and REALISTIC in what you would like to see AFTER the solutions to the problems you identified are implemented. 

Now, from experience, and I've been doign this for over 30 years, people are way too small minded to understand a "big picture" or "top down" approach.  Most are much more comfortable finding on and clinging to an emotional argument, one that they can yell and complain about, because face it, the big picture approach is HARD and takes a LOT OF WORK.  However, by making all Natives follow the same rules as the general public, YOUR FUTURE VISION of hunting in WA will NOT HAPPEN!  Why?  Because there are poachers, and there are predators, and there are hard winters that kill a lot of game, and there are BS policies that the WDFW implements, and of course, there isn't enough MONEY to fix all the problems you identify. 

So, to those who, like bradley, claim a paradigm shift is needed to solve the "problem" of the treaties, I say you need a bigger paradigm shift and start not with a problem, but with a vision of what you would like to see in the future.  THEN go out and find what is preventing that vision, and THEN understand the IMPACT of each thing that is preventing that vision, prioritize, and start knocking those things off.  Be prepared for a long, hard implementation of the solutions, be prepared to PAY to realize your vision, and go out and get it done instead of pointing out random things that "need to be fixed".

Now, small minded people that lack the mental capacity to understand what I just said, hold forth with your wisdom of what the real problem is. 

Dave

[OutHouse]

DaveMonti said it the best; the solution is found in seeing the bigger picture and not allowing emotions etc. to narrow your vision. Like he said, there are many, many factors that play into this issue and to focus on Natives as the primary factor simply evinces a lack of developed critical thinking skills. If we all work to fix the numerous problems causing this butt-hurtedness, this thread wouldn't even be here.

[PlateauNDN]

Whoa...who brought logic to the thread and why.

[DaveMonti]

I was hoping that something other than a bunch of hostility came out of the thread that the OP started with the intent of creating chaos.  That "something" might be as little as a "better understanding" of what is causing such unhappiness among posters.  Sorry if I ruined the thread for you Plat.

[Odell]

I kind of hate to weigh in here, but throughout my career, I've been faced with "problems" continuously that needed to be fixed.  The one thing I learned early on, and it has made me an effective problem solver, is to understand the goal of any solution.  To do that, one needs to understand what the PROBLEM is. 
Everyone states that problems need fixing, the treaties, the natives policing their own, the importance of wildlife vs. shellfish with the WDFW, penalties are not strong enough, the wolves, cougars, bobcats, coyotes, liberals wanting to shut down our public lands, on and on and on.  These problems will never be "fixed" unless everyone understands what impact these problems are creating today.  In other words, in the big picture, what is the problem???

So, start with the set of undesirable conditions that these "problems" are causing.  What is the big problem?  The answer is not "Natives hunt and kill a lot of animals".  If you want to look at it from the other direction, "What does something look like AFTER a solution is implemented?"  And the answer there is not "Natives must follow all the rules like everyone else". 
The answer is "What are you really pissed about?"  My guess is that it's not easy enough for you (and every other hunter) to go out and kill a tasty trophy every time you want to. 
There are MANY reasons for this, so get to work formulating the reasons.  Predators might be one.  The Natives enforcement policies might be another.  WDFW management strategies might be another.  Poachers might be another.  Develop a list of problems that are causing this "undesirable situation" that is making everyone complain.  This is the beginning of the development of a STRATEGY.  Impact analysis tells you what "problems" have the biggest impact on your desired outcome. 

Please remember that in the big picture, what something looks like AFTER the solutions are implemented to remedy the "problems" everyone has identified, it will NOT BE POSSIBLE for everyone to go out and kill a tasty trophy whenever they want.  So, BE REASONABLE and REALISTIC in what you would like to see AFTER the solutions to the problems you identified are implemented. 

Now, from experience, and I've been doign this for over 30 years, people are way too small minded to understand a "big picture" or "top down" approach.  Most are much more comfortable finding on and clinging to an emotional argument, one that they can yell and complain about, because face it, the big picture approach is HARD and takes a LOT OF WORK.  However, by making all Natives follow the same rules as the general public, YOUR FUTURE VISION of hunting in WA will NOT HAPPEN!  Why?  Because there are poachers, and there are predators, and there are hard winters that kill a lot of game, and there are BS policies that the WDFW implements, and of course, there isn't enough MONEY to fix all the problems you identify. 

So, to those who, like bradley, claim a paradigm shift is needed to solve the "problem" of the treaties, I say you need a bigger paradigm shift and start not with a problem, but with a vision of what you would like to see in the future.  THEN go out and find what is preventing that vision, and THEN understand the IMPACT of each thing that is preventing that vision, prioritize, and start knocking those things off.  Be prepared for a long, hard implementation of the solutions, be prepared to PAY to realize your vision, and go out and get it done instead of pointing out random things that "need to be fixed".

Now, small minded people that lack the mental capacity to understand what I just said, hold forth with your wisdom of what the real problem is. 

Dave

In all your years as a great problem solver did you find it effective to assume your perspective was the truth and call anyone who disagreed with you "small minded", and "lacking mental capacity"?

[boneaddict]

I only have an attention span of a gnat Dave.  Anyway you can say what you just did in maybe 500 words or less.    I'm apparently too small minded for your perspective.

[bobcat]

There are not "numerous problems," at least not ones that are a subject of this thread. The problem is that the Yakama tribe and the WDFW do not work together in managing deer and elk. It makes no sense to have the Desert GMU with a very small number of permits each year for hunting mule deer for non tribal members, while the Yakama tribe allows their people to kill as many mule deer as they want out of the same unit. This applies to the Alkali GMU as well. That is the problem and that's what this thread is about. It's not about emotion and there's no lack of logic in what's being discussed.

[PlateauNDN]

I was hoping that something other than a bunch of hostility came out of the thread that the OP started with the intent of creating chaos.  That "something" might be as little as a "better understanding" of what is causing such unhappiness among posters.  Sorry if I ruined the thread for you Plat.

My apologies dave, I posted my comment as a joke as for me I'm glad that some understand the complexities of the situation. Your comment is one of the best that I've seen in awhile for a non-tribal perspective and only one other person presented that type of scenario and he's no longer here.    keep up the logic and glad to see it.