Pneumatic arrow gun allowed during Archery and Muzzloader Special Seasons

[JDHasty]

An arrow propelled by air is not archery.Just as a rocket is not a firearm.I would like to see some repeatable penetration tests at 200,300,400 yards.A guy popping a ballon a 200 yards and being amazed he hit the target is not hunting.At some point in distance the arrow is no longer being shot it's just falling.A 375 grain arrow falling 200 feet is not going to kill an elk.That being said the airbow is pretty impressive.

Without the 12' tall backstop those shots are impossible.The tall backstop is being used as a point of reference to aim at.Put a foam elk at 300 yards with no backstop used as reference and it's a miss every time.

I have run the numbers and a 400 grain bolt launched at 450 fps retains 67 foot lbs of energy at 420 yards.  Eastman says 45-65 lbs energy for elk size game.

A 400 gr arrow traveling 275 fps is not "falling."  It has as much, or more forward momentum than a lot of 300 grain arrows launched from a compound bow does at the point it was launched.   

If you don't like my math, calculate it yourself.  If you don't like Eastman's numbers... there is no better authority so it matters not what anyone says, you have your mind made up. 

And there are videos of a guy hitting a 12 inch diameter balloon repeatedly at 300 yards with a Matrix 380, so since the pneumatic arrow gun has accuracy that exceeds crossbow accuracy and it will put an arrow completely trough an elk at 300 yards it is has a documented effective range of 300 yards on elk size game. 

As for "washington legal muzzle loaders that would effectively kill well beyond 250 yards in the right hands," I would give that statement the same consideration I used to give the guy who showed up at the trap range and couldn't break 15 targets "but never misses on live birds."  The difference is no one is present who was keeping score on these guys live bird shooting.  Or anyone who wants to claim such who cannot point to the registered targets on file with a sanctioning body. 

I have no issue with these being legal for use during the modern season, but Washington Archery and Muzzleloader are defined as "primitive weapon" seasons.  What is more, misfires are very common in Washington ML hunting, you are not allowed 209 primers, but these pneumatic arrow guns don't misfire, can have illuminated reticle scopes  and can be reloaded and fired eight times before a ML can be reloaded and fired a second time. 

They go so far beyond accommodation that they are a difference in kind rather than a difference in degree.  They do not belong in primitive weapon seasons.  I have archery hunted and had deer standing in front of me I could not shoot because it was not light enough or too dark out that I could have easily shot with my crossbow or my slug gun or my rifle.  Fact is I have shot legal deer or elk between fifteen minutes after legal sundown and a half hour with all three well after it would not be possible on a crappy day to get a good sight picture with any non illuminated archery sight. Illuminated low light scopes extend the hunting day by almost a half hour if you add up somewhere between 12 to 15 minutes extended hunting both morning and evening.   

Poppycock

The guy I watched used an HHA Optimizer between his scope and weaver base that allowed him to dial in elevation out at those distances, and there is nothing that prevents someone putting a varmint scope or other high power large adjustment range scope with illuminated reticle in it on either a crossbow or a pneumatic arrow gun and dialing precise elevations.  My crossbow is an Excalibur Triggertech Matrix 355, which is nothing to sneeze at, but it falls short of what is out there today, and it is child's play to shoot groups of an inch at fifty yards with it off a Bullsbag rest. 

It has an illuminated scope on it and I use it to hunt during Modern Seasons, I use my compound bow more during Modern Seasons, it just depends on how I am feeling at the moment which I might grab if I decide to hunt with something other than a modern firearm.

I think it is absolutely ludicrous to allow equipment that falls so far outside the effective range of ANY compound bow, then add to this the fact that adding low light illuminated reticle scopes adds ~ a half-hour to the hunting day. 

This is not legitimate accommodation by any definition. 

[yorketransport]

It's always kind of funny to see how the gun world embraces advancement and fights to support new technology, but large segments of the archery and muzzleloader community will fight against similar advancements.

Maybe that is why they call it the "modern" season as opposed to "primitive weapons"?  Seems to make perfect sense to me.  One is modern, which by definition includes new advances.  One is primitive, which by definition excludes modern and new advances.

I get that, but then why aren't all archers fighting to go back to recurve and long bows? Compounds certainly qualify as an advancement in archery equipment don't they? Is this just a case of technology advancing too far?

As for "washington legal muzzle loaders that would effectively kill well beyond 250 yards in the right hands," I would give that statement the same consideration I used to give the guy who showed up at the trap range and couldn't break 15 targets "but never misses on live birds."  The difference is no one is present who was keeping score on these guys live bird shooting.  Or anyone who wants to claim such who cannot point to the registered targets on file with a sanctioning body. 
   

I don't personally know anyone here in WA who's actually taking game animals with muzzle loaders beyond 200 yards, but I've shot them enough and shot with enough guys to know that hitting a 12" gong at 250 yards with one isn't terribly hard. Anyone who's spent much time with iron sights, especially a quality peep site, can make those hits with little effort. At 250 yards, a 300gr sabot load with a muzzle velocity of around 1900 fps (a pretty realistic velocity from a 28" barrel) still has nearly the same velocity as the same bullet fired from either a 44 mag or 45 Colt +P load at the muzzle (typically 1200fps) and no knowledgeable hunter would deny the effectiveness of either one of those rounds out to 50+ yards.

As far as illuminated optics extending usable hunting hours, couldn't the same be said about superior optics coatings on binos? I know that using a $100 pair of Big 5 binos will shave some time off of your usable hunting light compared to a guy using a pair of Swaros. Should we restrict the quality of optics that hunters should be allowed to use during different seasons? Maybe those hunting during primitive seasons shouldn't be allowed to use binos.

My whole point here is that there's already equipment out there that's capable of making what would be considered extreme range shots  in the right hands. That doesn't mean the everybody is out there doing it though. Have a little more faith in the hunting community and don't worry quite so much about spreading fear and panic. More importantly, please stop wasting government officials' time with this stuff! Government agencies have much more important things to do than deal with "the sky is falling" phone calls all the time over what amounts to insignificant issues. Why not just focus on educating your target audience instead of legislating them?

[JDHasty]

Conversation I have been having on Bowhunting.com:

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They just need to be caught by the Game and fish. They won’t be riding around in the back of any more truck miss-using the diss-able clause, that they are handy caped. They are clearly in violation. They just need the game and fish to explain it to them real good!


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That is where you are wrong,  The "disability coordinator" pushed this through too.  I looked it up and if you "qualify" you are now afforded the luxury of hunting during Washington's Archery Season, before archers have been in the field for the month of September, when elk herds allow the luxury of driving to within a couple hundred yards of them and snapping photos (believe me I have many, but none that were taken in October or November or even after the second day of Archery Season) when you cannot get within a quarter mile of an elk herd without them exiting stage right, left or straight away.

So add to that our forests are cut up by roads, and the elk and deer tolerate traffic all summer, but once Archery Season has been going for a couple weeks - you do the math.  And although the access roads close to hunters, they are open (and rightfully so IMHO)  for those who cannot walk due to ambulatory disability.  BUT if you "got the disability stamp," for a lack of being able to pull a compound or recurve or longbow, the door is kicked wide open.  EVEN if you can walk, run, jump and get through the woods like an Olympic athlete.  How ludicrous is that?  What a mockery of "reasonable accommodation" does that ruling make of the concept of our "primitive weapon seasons?"

I am all for allowing "reasonable accommodation," what I object to is allowing rank opportunists to enlist the assistance of the gal WDFW hired as a disability manager to so *censored*ize the very concept of reasonable accommodation, advocate on behalf of unreasonable advantage and get this crap pushed through.

[Smossy]

I know everyone hates on the over accommodation but being a felon myself and limited to bow hunting (not by choice) I enjoy the possibility at being able to reach out alittle further.
Of course there should be and can be better ways of writing it into initiative. Just my two cents. I was always looking forward to the possibility of air guns that are able to reach a certain about of kinetic energy and fps being made legal for hunting even if placed in modern firearm seasons. It would alow people like me to hunt longer ranges in an ethical way.
Before some of you say "by no means are air rifles ethical" you should do alittle more research. Some of these air rifles thsee days are able to drop cape buffalo and even some larger African animals at 100+ yards with no problem. The power is there.

[JDHasty]

I know everyone hates on the over accommodation but being a felon myself and limited to bow hunting (not by choice) I enjoy the possibility at being able to reach out alittle further.
Of course there should be and can be better ways of writing it into initiative. Just my two cents. I was always looking forward to the possibility of air guns that are able to reach a certain about of kinetic energy and fps being made legal for hunting even if placed in modern firearm seasons. It would alow people like me to hunt longer ranges in an ethical way.
Before some of you say "by no means are air rifles ethical" you should do alittle more research. Some of these air rifles thsee days are able to drop cape buffalo and even some larger African animals at 100+ yards with no problem. The power is there.

Join us during the Modern Season.  You know as well as I that elk and deer will let you drive up to them in early Archery Seasons.  That is what Archery is all about, stalking an elk that has no clue up to archery range.  For the love of God man, I could walk up to an elk herd in a Santa clause suite on Sept 1.  I could drive a Bradly tank up to within 200 yards of an elk herd on Sept 1. 


Restrict 200 yard plus weapons to Modern Season.  Allow accommodation,  but let's cut the crap, if you want to hunt during a season that demands stalking up to 80, or so yards.... you do the math.  Where does a weapon that allows a 200 yard "chip shot" fit into that special Season? 

[Dan-o]

JD, I'm a little unclear on this.

What is your position?

 

Sorry.....   Couldn't help myself.     

[yorketransport]

Restrict 200 yard plus weapons to Modern Season.  Allow accommodation,  but let's cut the crap, if you want to hunt during a season that demands stalking up to 80, or so yards.... you do the math.  Where does a weapon that allows a 2000 yard "chip shot" fit into that special Season?

I've done a lot of shooting out beyond 1 mile and I can't think of any platform that makes 2000 yards a chip shot.