Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies

[bearpaw]

Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.

Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.

I want to add a little additional info about how hunting benefits elephants and other species. Africa is an extremely poor continent, poachers abound trying to make money off wildlife parts. If elephant hunting is allowed hunters are willing to pay $30,000 to $50,000+ to shoot an elephant. This makes the animals more valuable than they are to poachers and local people police those animals far more aggressively to save the animals and keep the hunters coming. Hunting is a boon for local economies providing much needed income. When you take away hunting poaching increases, that has been proven in the countries that abolished elephant hunting. The countries that allow regulated sport hunting usually have the best populations of any species because hunters are willing to spend the money that is used to manage wildlife and keep wildlife abundant.

[huntnfmly]

Very good point.
Once they put that value on the animals they protect them better anti groups don't understand that

[huntnfmly]

This might be Apple to oranges but this shows how antis think.
 There was a interview with the president of humane society about exotics on private ranches in Texas and said about a species that was only alive on these ranches should just be extinct because that type of hunting is wrong.

[beav1980]

I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

[Britt-dog]

I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

Please explain the information you've used to come to your opinion. the individuals here in favor of lifting the ban have articulated their reasoning. Please do the same.

My guess is "your opinion" has no basis in fact, but instead is a result of your feelings.

ETA: lifting the ban on importation of elephant trophies is allowing these countries to manage their own wildlife. Those countries have chosen to allow non resident hunters to hunt their wildlife. Banning the importation of the resulting trophies is in essence trying to nullify their decision.

[lokidog]

 

[pianoman9701]

I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros

[pianoman9701]

Trump reinstated the ban yesterday. Huge mistake and will not only hurt the survival of these animals, but his image as a President who can make a decision and see it through.

[brush hunter]

I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA! 

Only congress can change the ESA.

That's why I said work on the ESA!

And what do you suggest?

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not trying to say there should be a blanket number that works for all animals, I'm simply saying if there are 60,000+ wolves and wolf populations are expanding then wolves are not endangered.

  They are when I'm in the area.....

[jackelope]

So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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[Britt-dog]

So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.

[ribka]

I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

The black market for ivory exists primarily in Asia and the middle east. Very little ivory gets smuggled into the US at least according a buddy who works for USFWS as an anti smuggling agent

What did the lion guy do wrong? What law did he break? Why wasn't he prosecuted?

The lion guy hunts Africa often and brought over $100k in US dollars to Africa over the years and that money supports the local economy and goes to anti poaching efforts. The meat from harvested game is donated to local villages. Do you know how many people an elephant can feed? A good deal of the native population would get zero protein without the animals shot by the evil trophy hunters. Americans and Europeans who are opposed to sport hunting in Africa have no clue about the living conditions there and the poverty levels and lack of food.

Its amazing that people who have never been to Africa and understand absolutely nothing about wildlife conservation, living conditions, the rampant poaching by the locals  want legal sport hunting shut down. Ironic the sport hunters bring tens of millions of dollars a year to Africa and people who complain do nothing and donate zero money to help out in African wildlife conservation.

[pianoman9701]

So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Importing trophies, especially ivory, include intense documentation of the hunt, the kill site, the animal's remains and their final disposition. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a trophy hunter to fake a kill just to get his/her hands on ivory. And why would you? Why wouldn't you just pay the money to go hunt the animal? In addition, the areas that have legal trophy hunting also have intense security to protect the resource. Game animal populations in those areas are healthy and protected due to the money coming in from the hunters. There is almost zero correlation between legal hunting and poaching in Africa. They don't happen in the same places. Take for example the area where Cecil was shot. When a hunting ban was introduced right after the news came out, security patrols were canceled and immediately, poaching caused the deaths of 60+ elephants. It is thought likely that some of the former park security were involved when that money for their paychecks dried up. Since, trophy hunting has been reinstated and the poaching has diminished.

[jackelope]

So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.

Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. It’s just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So who’s to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesn’t go up? I’m not seeing the logic. Yet. I’m open minded, but I’m not on board yet.


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[Britt-dog]

So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.

Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. It’s just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So who’s to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesn’t go up? I’m not seeing the logic. Yet. I’m open minded, but I’m not on board yet.


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The lifting of this ban does not legalize the wholesale import of ivory into the United States. It simply allows documented legally taken trophies to be brought home. Importation and sale of ivory from other sources will remain illegal. There is very little demand for ivory in the United states, it is almost all sent to Asian countries.