Wolf supporters, you happy ?

[idahohuntr]

You can find plenty of articles saying wolves aren't bad, that they only take the sick and wounded and make the herds stronger and make you a better hunter. 


I don't get my information from a magazine or some college professor in charge of large carnivore studies sitting in a classroom at WSU.

edit:
Actually now I've read the article it doesn't contradict me at all if you take out the obvious bias and just stick to the facts presented, funny thing is the facts in the article directly contradict the researchers own narrative.  Read it again with a unbiased eye and filter out the facts, then re-read what I wrote.  It's in there, if you can see it.

The article of the study funded by RMEF, SCI, Boone and Crockett club etc. and conducted by Wyoming staff directly contradict your speculative view of how wolves interact with elk.  They flat out state:
The researchers also found that the number of wolf encounters had no impact on the amount of elk body fat. Body fat is a critical measurement for cows' ability to rear calves.

So if the wolf-hunting-pressure theory was busted, what was happening to the Clark Fork's herd?

Middleton says it comes down to habitat. The area has suffered a 20-year decline in habitat across the herd's summer range. If an elk can't put on enough body fat in the summer and fall, then it will struggle through the winter, regardless of predators,

This study is specific to a NW Wyoming elk herd, so how applicable it is to other parts of the West is certainly debatable.  It definitely adds to the body of evidence regarding the criticality of habitat relative to predators.  Predation and predators are so visible its easy to blame them for any declines, and it is a legitimate blame in various areas, but it is very hard to see the habitat changes over 30, 50, 100 years that in many instances have substantially larger impacts on animal abundance.
 

[KFhunter]

Habitat waxes and wains and housing developments get put in we all know that, there could be a huge fire that destroys habitat but then a few years later it's excellent.  In the Clark Fork herd why was the habitat bad?  Was it global warming?  It doesn't explain that, or I missed it, regardless some habitat we can control and improve and I'm all for that,  but a lot of it we cannot. 

Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers, but in a separate study Middleton found that wolves weren't even the top calf predators. He found that bears typically take out more elk calves than wolves do. During a June monitoring period grizzlies killed an elk calf every two to four days and black bears killed a calf every four to eight days.

Just what I said above, wolves don't tend to scour around for calves and instead just chase around the adults, a younger black bear will take a calf if the adults are gone.  Big boars and Grizz don't care either way, but those younger bear outnumber those big boars and grizz. 

To show my point here's a couple utube vids.

#1 no wolves present, cow defends calf vid

#2 "ears drooped, totally wore out" what wore that cow out so bad?  The bear?  I highly doubt that, according to the description this is an area being hit by wolves and the elk are in serious decline here, so make your own assumptions why that cow was wore out so bad.

[KFhunter]

OK here is the article in full, I've cut and paste here so I can add my commentary. 

Any hunter who's spent time in wolf country can attest to the predators' influence. We see wolf tracks, find old kills, and often times we spot fewer game animals. But exactly how wolves affect big-game populations is still greatly unknown. Yeah, wolves eat elk. But, do they kill mostly adults or calves? Do they eat enough elk to wipe out a whole herd? Do they pressure elk into hiding in the timber or force them off their feeding patterns? Are wolves even one of the main factors in elk population dynamics?

KF says: Wolves mostly kill adults or sub adults, not calves.  They don’t scour around seeking small morels like a neonatal calf.

New research from the Wyoming Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at the University of Wyoming is starting to shed light on some of these questions. After three years of studying the Clark's Fork elk herd (about 5,000 animals) in northwest Wyoming, lead researcher Arthur Middleton found that wolves might not be as detrimental to elk populations as many outdoorsmen think.

KF says:  You can find Arthur Middleton at UC Berkeley  ->   amiddleton@berkeley.edu 

His research shows that the Clark's Fork herd's fate is based on a complex set of variables including habitat, weather, hunting, bears, and wolves.

KF says: hrm, this is a precursor of an articles intent... #1habitat, #2weather, #3hunting, #4bears, and #5wolves...in that order /sigh 

"There's a pretty popular notion that elk are always responding to wolves. And that's a fairly logical perception because wolves are always hunting elk … But wolves hunt an elk population. That [hunting pressure] doesn't always affect individual animals."

KF says:  Big herd = safety in numbers, but what about small herds?  In this instance the whole herd is affected anytime there are wolves taking an interest in them.  Yes they’ll stand around a while eyeballin’ one another and people would think “oh man, they aren’t running around crazy like everyone say’s”….ya, keep watching.  It’ll get more serious once they break.

The Study**
Middleton and a coalition of biologists GPS collared wolves and elk west of Cody, Wyoming in and around Yellowstone National park. In a study area of about 1 million acres, they monitored interactions between predator and prey. Over three years they observed the animals in January, February, and March - when wolves typically put the most stress on elk. The study was funded by a variety of organizations and agencies including Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Boone & Crockett Club, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Safari Club International.

KF says:  “January, February, and March - when wolves typically put the most stress on elk.”  Keep this thought…….

The researchers set out to test the theory that wolves were responsible for decreasing elk populations in ways besides direct predation. In other words, they wanted to find out if pressure from wolves was running elk out of their regular feeding patterns and keeping cows from putting on enough body fat to rear calves in the spring.

KF says:  Have you ever seen a wolf pack bump a small herd over and over and over and over again?  I have.  In bigger herds the extra harassment by wolves could be absorbed with less impact for individual animals as this article and study talk about, not so much in small herds.

The research started at a critical time for the Clark's Fork herd. Calf-to-cow ratios in the migratory herd started dropping in the mid-90s, about the same time wolves were introduced. Those ratios have remained low since 2002 and overall elk numbers decreased. Middleton found about 15 calves to 100 elk in the migratory Clark's Fork herd. In the resident herd, the ratio was about 35 calves per 100 elk.

KF says: There’s a lot of information here, the migratory herd suffered over twice the losses of the resident herd but we don’t know why, did they migrate to Mt. lion infested areas?  Mt. Lion take more young animals than any other predator in areas where there are a lot of lions. Elk declined “About the same time wolves were introduced”  Occam’s razor would say “duh”.

Hunters and wildlife managers were alarmed by the drop in elk numbers. Doug McWhiter, a Wyoming Fish and Game biologist who manages the area, said elk numbers are stable now, but hunting opportunities had to be cut. Cow tags were reduced and hunting units in the area were switched from general over-the-counter licenses to limited quota in 2010. Hunter opportunity was reduced by 50 to 75 percent, says McWhiter who helped with Middleton's research.

KF says:  It’s a good idea to stop antlerless hunts when the herd is in decline and below management objectives. We’ll be seeing this in WA more and more, or rather we should be seeing even more of this now.

"We can maintain these elk numbers but we had to severely limit hunting opportunity to do that," he says. "That in itself is difficult for people to understand."

KF says: It’s easy to understand with proper outreach and transparency, but when agencies like WDFW tend to blame everything BUT the wolf, then it’s more difficult to understand or rather accept at face value.  When all else fails, it’s habitat loss! basically folks it comes down to this    it's us(hunters) or it's them (predators) WDFW has chosen its side

The Findings**
Middleton and his crew found that a new wolf pack does not mean certain doom for an elk herd. In fact, elk have adapted to living with wolves.

KF says: A new wolf pack is just the start, it takes a while.

"From my time in the field, I can say that most days in the life of a cow elk are pretty boring," Middleton says. On average, elk encountered wolves once every 9 days. The highest wolf-encounter rate for any individual elk was once every four days. And, even though elk were encountering wolves, they weren't overly stressed or run to starvation.

KF says:  Can you see the Elk from the UC Berkeley campus?  The Elk weren’t overly stressed?  Again safety in big numbers, but as the herds decline the pressure increases.  Just look at the LOLO Elk herd, once that tipping point was crossed it was a swift decline, like a snowball effect.

"We didn't see any reduction in rate of feeding and we didn't see them shift into timber. Those two behaviors were said to be [metabolically] costly, but we just didn't see [the elk reacting that way,]" Middleton says.

KF says:  I would not expect a PHD to use a source like “said to be”; regardless this again is safety in numbers.

Elk did move slightly more when wolves were within 1 kilometer, but not by much - they only traveled an extra 30 meters per hour when wolves were in the area.

KF says: Some of the animals not directly being chased ran in circles avoiding the wolf, this wouldn’t happen in a small herd as they all move out together.

The researchers also found that the number of wolf encounters had no impact on the amount of elk body fat. Body fat is a critical measurement for cows' ability to rear calves.

KF says: Not in a small herd being bumped over and over.

So if the wolf-hunting-pressure theory was busted, what was happening to the Clark Fork's herd?
KF says: It’s not busted; the article/study has jumped to this conclusion, the true goal of the study is to show habitat loss.  The evidence was weak and based on one or two herds depending on the season. 

Middleton says it comes down to habitat. The area has suffered a 20-year decline in habitat across the herd's summer range. If an elk can't put on enough body fat in the summer and fall, then it will struggle through the winter, regardless of predators, Middleton says.

KF says: How’d I guess habitat was the key, the magic bullet.  Ok, maybe(benefit of the doubt here) this herd has suffered habitat loss over a 20 year period, but other herds in collapse or serious decline have not suffered habitat loss, are we to take this article seriously?

"We looked at a suite of factors that could explain late-winter body fat and the only thing that did explain it was autumn body fat. In other words, whatever they get over the summer determines where they end up in winter," he says.

KF says: Well duh, unless you’re feeding them.

Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers, but in a separate study Middleton found that wolves weren't even the top calf predators. He found that bears typically take out more elk calves than wolves do. During a June monitoring period grizzlies killed an elk calf every two to four days and black bears killed a calf every four to eight days.

KF says: “Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers” here’s our take away folks   :lol:   I also agree that wolves aren’t the top predator for calves, that’s the bear for very young bedded calves and Mt. Lion for juvenile elk following the herd. Like I said, it's in here if you can see it. 

Backcountry Observations**
Collecting data that shows an elk herd can thrive in wolf country and then getting people to actually believe that data are two different challenges. Hunters and outfitters who have spent their lives in the backcountry - before and after the wolf reintroduction - have already made plenty of their own observations.

KF says: Now we see the goal of this article --> "to get people to actually believe this crap”; it totally discounts hunting guides and paints them as the enemy, when they have more knowledge of the elk than practically anyone else.

Tim Doud, owner of Bliss Creek Outfitters out of Cody, says the elk decline goes hand-in-hand with the wolf reintroduction. Clear and simple.

KF says: correct Tim, just as Middleton found himself, see above.

"The elk population numbers have certainty decreased and it is because of the wolves. That's the only reason in my eyes," he says. "Now I'm not anti-wolf. I don't think they should be wiped out or anything like that. But we do need to hunt more of them. Most people don't see what I see. They don't see the horrific, suffering death of an elk whose hindquarters have been chewed away and can only lay there and die slowly. That's a real shame. Most people … go to Yellowstone to see the pretty dogs."
KF says:  **note to all guides out there, using the phrase "I'm not anti-wolf" is akin to saying: "I'm not a racist, I have a black friend!" or: "I'm not a bigot, I have a gay friend!"
Just don't go there folks 

KF says: correct, all canid species tend to kill in a gruesome way, emotion aside, he’s correct that: “Of course, wolf depredation does affect overall elk numbers” that cannot be denied.

Ron Lineberger owns Butte Creek Outfitters with his wife Theresa and guides elk hunters in the Wyoming backcountry. Over the years he's seen elk behavior change, and in many ways his observations match Middleton's research. "Elk behavior has totally changed, but the elk are not gone. Everyone loves to blame the wolf because it's easy … [Wolves] did change the dynamic for the environment and they've changed the way a lot of animals have evolved. It has led to a bit of catastrophic natural adaptation…

KF says: No they aren’t gone, in Yellowstone you can find them in the parking lot eating grass from cracks in the blacktop, in other wolf areas you can find them huddling next to a farm house, it’s great if you profit off elk with trespass fees, not so great if you’re a public land hunter and the wolves have driven all the elk down to private property.

"There has been a succession of fires, which destroyed natural elk habitat. Grizzly bear numbers have gone up and the elk have moved to survive. They have moved to more agricultural and human habitat areas. It's not just the wolf that's caused the change. People just look to put the blame on one thing. Yes, elk have moved to areas that haven't seen elk for 200 years. But there are large portions of healthy elk populations that have moved to private land, which makes them unhuntable … Think of it this way: the elk are picking their poison. Either deal with hunters in the low country for 6 weeks, or stay in the high country and deal with wolves and bears year round."

KF says: Fire is natural, and short term, the area will rebound with excellent forage if the Elk can sustain additional wolf pressure.  Grizz and Wolves go hand in hand, when the wolf thrives the Grizz follow, they push wolves off kills, thus the wolves kill more often, I’ve said before that a Grizz can smell a wolf kill before it happens.  As for Elk moving to private property I’ve addressed that above.

The takeaway?
Adapting to environmental changes is key to the success of a species, and an elk hunter. "The hunter has to adapt as well," Lineberger says. "Hunting elk also relies on a lot of factors that we have no control over. The fact that they have become more alert thanks to the wolves, certainly makes it tougher, but hunters must adapt to that. We are no different than any other animal. We must adapt to survive."

KF says: Wolves will make you a better hunter!  (if you can afford the trespass fees)

[KFhunter]

I also found it interesting that the article blamed a 20 year decline in habitat for the elk herd decline, yet went into zero detail, are we to assume? So I'll assume developments..

The article states that Elk find safety near humans, so does that mean that all those new houses should be helping the elk by keeping wolves at bay?  If that's the case then folks should be planting things elk like to eat in the winter, or put in a feeding station if they want elk to thrive over winter. 

[Jonathan_S]

Yeah but where’s the “facts”???! 

Pull a numberered list out of your arse is the only way to represent fact.

Just kidding, and thanks for posting

[KFhunter]

the actual study

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3ccf/ef5fbf556901d606bd2f882b65db4c520977.pdf?_ga=2.130403784.636247903.1525486577-619166728.1525486577

[cbond3318]

Thank you for posting the actual study synopsis. I don’t see how anyone with an unbiased position can read that report and not see that in at least this study’s sample population, Wolves hunting Elk did not kill elk and it is the actual killing of Elk by wolves that impact numbers.

I don’t apply this in a broad stroke to all populations because a study will never be able to cover all populations but, this study’s findings are clear and they are in there if you are willing to see it.

[Oh Mah]

You can say i'm all alone on this you can even say i'm so far out their and don't know anything about this because i don't live in wolf country.That's all fine and good.I will stick with all of my statements and just keep a watchful eye on the kill claims made in certain areas of the state.Now i acknowledge that the wdfw has said there is a pack of 4 in Cle Ellum,This i did not know but If you are not seeing a bunch of ranchers in Central WA. claiming wolves are killing their stock then i don't see how anyone can say that the wolves are killing all the elk.


Question isn't there a lot of reports in NE WA. with these claims?If there are (we know there are) why not here in central wa.?

Site reports of confirmed or non wolf-cattle kills in Central WA. We already have the one in Cle Ellum.

[Bango skank]

Yeah, wolf supporters should be happy.  This mountain is now nearly devoid of game.  Not jack for deer or bears, elk are scarce, and moose getting hammered.  I count 11 wolves here.  Mountain is absolutely covered in wolf tracks, and they have a den just a little ways south of this cam, so i expect 14+ in this pack soon, and with the way they seem to have run all of the game out of the area, im certain theyre goibg to splinter off into multiple smaller groups, most of which wont be collared and therefore untrackable, leading to greater costs for wdfw.  Hope youre happy wolf lovers.

[KFhunter]

You can say i'm all alone on this you can even say i'm so far out their and don't know anything about this because i don't live in wolf country.That's all fine and good.I will stick with all of my statements and just keep a watchful eye on the kill claims made in certain areas of the state.Now i acknowledge that the wdfw has said there is a pack of 4 in Cle Ellum,This i did not know but If you are not seeing a bunch of ranchers in Central WA. claiming wolves are killing their stock then i don't see how anyone can say that the wolves are killing all the elk.


Question isn't there a lot of reports in NE WA. with these claims?If there are (we know there are) why not here in central wa.?

Site reports of confirmed or non wolf-cattle kills in Central WA. We already have the one in Cle Ellum.

This is how it starts

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2016/dec/29/feds-wolves-not-responsible-for-dead-cattle/

Feds: Wolves did not kill cattle
BREWSTER — The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service found that wolves were not responsible for two cows found dead in the Brewster area in mid-December.

Wildlife Service spokeswoman Ann Froschauer said although wolves had been feeding on the dead cows, neither of the carcasses showed any evidence they were injured before they died, or had any of the signs that are specific to wolf-killed animals.

“The cows died from unknown causes, as they often do,” she said.

Froschauer said the…

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/mar/28/wolves-didnt-kill-cow-state-says/
WENATCHEE — State wildlife experts have concluded that a pregnant cow found dead south of Wenatchee on Tuesday was not killed by a wolf. However they are still worried about the two gray wolves that appear to be establishing territory on or near a cattle ranch in Pitcher Canyon.

[Oh Mah]

To both posts,there is no doubt there are a lot of wolves in NE WA. like where both of these posts are referring.My point is that the elk are gone everywhere in this state not just in NE WA.

Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.

[KFhunter]

To both posts,there is no doubt there are a lot of wolves in NE WA. like where both of these posts are referring.My point is that the elk are gone everywhere in this state not just in NE WA.

Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.

Are you gambling that wolves won't kill cattle in central wa?  Sounds like a loosing proposition when mostly likely, they already have.  Or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?

[bowhunterforever]

What gmu bango?

[Oh Mah]

To both posts,there is no doubt there are a lot of wolves in NE WA. like where both of these posts are referring.My point is that the elk are gone everywhere in this state not just in NE WA.

Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.

Are you gambling that wolves won't kill cattle in central wa?  Sounds like a loosing proposition when mostly likely, they already have.  Or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?

not moving anything,just pointing out the fact that we all agree that wolves are thick in NE WA. and lots of reports of wolfs killing livestock in NE WA.. and i'm pointing out that the same is not here in Central WA. so there must not be the wolves in Central WA. that some claim and that since we have the same elk decline in Central WA. that they have in NE WA. then the problem must be something other than wolves.

Never changed my story from start to finish,Hunt them in every county of the state.

[KFhunter]

They are in central WA, and the Elk are declining in central WA. but there's more factors going on than wolves alone. 
MT. Lion are also very thick in central WA, and then there's the whole tribal issue going on, bigger herds there than in NEWA.  The dynamics aren't all the same.  Each region needs to be looked individually, not this one shoe fits all approach.

Wolves will get worse though, you're a few years behind us here in NEWA.