Got opinions on WA deer management?

[KFhunter]

Here's an interesting thought, this taken from WDFW living with wildlife Deer
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/deer.html


"Mortality and Longevity

Cougars, bears, coyotes, and domestic dogs prey on adult deer; young fawns fall victim to these species as well as to eagles and bobcats.
Hunting, vehicles, and diseases all take their toll on deer. In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
Few deer live longer than ten years, and most live for no more than five."


So we need to hunt more deer so that other forms of mortality are reduced 

[idahohuntr]

With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor.  And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.

The voice of reason right there!I really didn't think anyone would actually need an explanation.

It is surprising...but if you suggest that Cougars and wolves are not the source of all lifes problems it's just too much for some people.

[hunter399]

Here's an interesting thought, this taken from WDFW living with wildlife Deer
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/deer.html


"Mortality and Longevity

Cougars, bears, coyotes, and domestic dogs prey on adult deer; young fawns fall victim to these species as well as to eagles and bobcats.
Hunting, vehicles, and diseases all take their toll on deer. In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
Few deer live longer than ten years, and most live for no more than five."


So we need to hunt more deer so that other forms of mortality are reduced 

You can't believe what WDFW TELL ya.  
They would say anything to make money.💰
With all there biologist,personal,ect,that are experts on wildlife it sure doesn't show it.

[NOCK NOCK]

I guess if we are getting technical the statement was made "a primary factor"not "the primary factor".

Awesome reply, 

[Humptulips]

One thing not mentioned is which deer are being harvested. The vast majority of deer harvested in WA are bucks. Because bucks will breed multiple does even with less bucks then does, does do not go barren. Therefore hunters for the most part  do not have the same hit on the breeding population that cougars do.
Hunters harvest even if it were close to predation does not equal the same thing.

[KFhunter]

With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor.  And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.

And WDFW says there are around 2,000 cougars (low estimate) and cougars have been recorded taking 1 deer a week (low estimate--some take closer to 1 deer a day).  Those low estimates would be 100,000 deer a year just for cougars.  Add in bear, bobcat, coyotes and now wolves.

bear, bobcat, wolves, coyotes, eagles, cougar etc don't discriminate either.  They'll take buck or doe and any fawn they can find. 

No, hunters are not a primary cause of mortality, perhaps in some areas where black tail are taken regurarly I'll give them that, but in the rest of the rural areas of the state it's not even close by a long shot. 

Hunters primarily take bucks, as long as the doe's are getting covered (they are) then hunters aren't a primary concern.   The only thing one could argue is by a hunter taking a buck that might have fed a cougar for a week that cougar instead had to take a doe, but that's reaching a bit. 

WDFW and other anti-hunting "conservationists" would LOVE for everyone to believe that hunters are the primary concern, it makes it easier to regulate the sport, easier to control the people, easier to extort more money.....but all it's doing is making more predators to fill the void.  (The same goes for Salmon, recreational fishing is but a pin drop compared to other losses)


This statement by WDFW is true:  In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.

[KFhunter]

One thing not mentioned is which deer are being harvested. The vast majority of deer harvested in WA are bucks. Because bucks will breed multiple does even with less bucks then does, does do not go barren. Therefore hunters for the most part  do not have the same hit on the breeding population that cougars do.
Hunters harvest even if it were close to predation does not equal the same thing.

 

didn't see your post for typing mine 

[idahohuntr]

With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor.  And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.

And WDFW says there are around 2,000 cougars (low estimate) and cougars have been recorded taking 1 deer a week (low estimate--some take closer to 1 deer a day).  Those low estimates would be 100,000 deer a year just for cougars.  Add in bear, bobcat, coyotes and now wolves.

bear, bobcat, wolves, coyotes, eagles, cougar etc don't discriminate either.  They'll take buck or doe and any fawn they can find. 

No, hunters are not a primary cause of mortality, perhaps in some areas where black tail are taken regurarly I'll give them that, but in the rest of the rural areas of the state it's not even close by a long shot. 

Hunters primarily take bucks, as long as the doe's are getting covered (they are) then hunters aren't a primary concern.   The only thing one could argue is by a hunter taking a buck that might have fed a cougar for a week that cougar instead had to take a doe, but that's reaching a bit. 

WDFW and other anti-hunting "conservationists" would LOVE for everyone to believe that hunters are the primary concern, it makes it easier to regulate the sport, easier to control the people, easier to extort more money.....but all it's doing is making more predators to fill the void.  (The same goes for Salmon, recreational fishing is but a pin drop compared to other losses)


This statement by WDFW is true:  In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.

Just do a google search of cause specific deer mortality studies.  The first one that comes up shows 57% of Male mule deer mortality in central oregon is the result of hunter harvest...keep looking and you will see similar results across many parts of the country.

One of my complaints about wa deer management is the lack of quality bucks, particularly mule deer in gen season hunts...even during the rut it's rare to see a 3+ pt deer running with the 50+ does I see regularly.
So are the cougars selectively eating bucks with 3+ points or do you think maybe hunter harvest is playing a significant role?  I'll give you a little hint...there is a 3 pt minimum in many of the units I'm describing.

[bobcat]

I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.

[Hot Lunch]

I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.

Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you  said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.

[bobcat]

I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.

Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you  said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.

Well, I have to question whether the few bucks left can get all those does bred. I doubt it. The buck to doe ratio is seriously out of whack.

[Humptulips]

I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.

If you do that you will never get rid of it.
So those  30 to 40 does. Let's assume every doe has 2 fawns so that means 10 to 13 mature does and they give birth to 10 to 13 bucks every year. Remember they all have twins. If all singles it works out to 7 to 10 bucks. Not sure how many deer you saw total but in order to keep the 3 point and larger bucks killed off like you think, you would have to kill that many every year. It must be a shooting gallery over there or else you are not seeing them.
I would bet on the latter'
Seeing a lot more does then bucks is the way it has always been and seeing even less 3 point and up is also the way it has always been.

[Humptulips]

I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.

Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you  said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.

Well, I have to question whether the few bucks left can get all those does bred. I doubt it. The buck to doe ratio is seriously out of whack.

Are you seeing barren does?

[KFhunter]

I'm done arguing about predator impact, everyone just wants to know what to do to WA hunters to improve hunting.

One of my complaints about wa deer management is the lack of quality bucks, particularly mule deer in gen season hunts...even during the rut it's rare to see a 3+ pt deer running with the 50+ does I see regularly.
So are the cougars selectively eating bucks with 3+ points or do you think maybe hunter harvest is playing a significant role?  I'll give you a little hint...there is a 3 pt minimum in many of the units I'm describing.

quantity > quality  = more bucks will make more quality bucks, to do that you need to kill more pred....oh shoot here I go again 

fine, permit only mule deer.  I've been leaning that way anyways but it's a bandaid to the larger problem no one wants to talk about.  The less hunters take = more predators have, the more deer predators have the more they breed, the more they breed the more mouths

shoot, here I go talking about predators again 

[bobcat]

Perhaps if everyone weren't able to hunt deer every year, they would focus on predators during those years that they didn't draw a deer permit? I know I would. I like the idea of earning points for every predator that you kill. I just don't think that's something the WDFW would ever get behind. That's the other thing I noticed in southeast Washington. Coyotes are thick! We'd see them and hear them all the time, everywhere we went. Funny how when I hunt in Wyoming coyotes are a rare sight. I wonder why that is?