New muzzleloader guidance

[lamrith]

I have been a stick-n-string and modern guy all my life.  Never touched a ML.   I am seeing that in some of the places I hunt, being able to use a ML could help with draws, plus I like trying new things, so I am looking to pickup my 1st ML.

I know WA changed the laws this year and now allow 209 primers, so I def want to take advantage of that.  However beyond that I am a bit clueless.

WA does not allow scopes, but another state I hunt in does allow them.  I would like to have the ability to mount a scope when I take those trips out of state.
I think I want an inline ML, but honestly am not sure what the difference really it?

Looking to start on the economy side of things if at all possible.  Does anyone have any recommendations?

[Night goat]

Modern inljnes imho are great, they are accurate and can accept a multitude of conical bullets, jacketed sabot rounds, there is more flexibility with powders, and essentially have the feel and handling characteristics of a modern firearm, they dont call them season extenders for nothing. And they are damned accurate. Plus you can scope them, but honestly I think a scope is useless on a muzzy because you are gonnna want to keep your shots under 100 yards....think improved older cousin to the shotgun slug gun. Maybe on the right inline with powder and bullet combo dialed in you could push 150 yards but, powder and bullet combination is paramount

Personally im a history nerd and dont care to own a modern inline, im actually in the market for a flintlock

However, you have to keep in mind that during the American revolution, militia men were notorious for picking off redcoats at 200+ yards with a kentucky or Pennsylvania long rifle, and that conical bullets werent on the battlefield for another 100 years. If you pick up a traditional black powder rifle, you are entering a forgotten chapter of history. Those guns are damned accurate too. I can lob a .490" 50 cal lead round ball with 100 grains of fffg powder out of my caplock Kentucky and consistantly hit a paper plate target at 50 yards, off hand, no patch around the ball, on a rifle I built from a DIY kit. Thats casual shooting with no care for accuracy, thats just making it go boom, I can group 3 inchs at 50 yards with a patch n ball, but its been a while since ive gone to the range and I just got a new barrel, so, it takes alot of practice to dial in the perfect load, but when you get that figured out (and there is a ton of load data out there, these guns are absolute tack drivers. A guy i know picks off poker chips at 75 yards with a 50 cal flintlock, call up greens gun range and ask for yourself

To each thier own, it really comes down to shooting ability and time at the range exploring the hundreds of bullet/lead round ball, patch, powder brand, and powder loads til you find the one that works best for your gun.

It encompases every aspect of hunting, shooting, and handloading your own amunition into a single shot that can make or break your season

There are still some shooting records held today done with a kentucky long rifle. Its a gun that has held fast for 300 years... I shoot one, looking to build a second

And yes, you can order them as kits, to build your self, and they legally dont require paperwork

[jamesfromseattle]

I’m in the same boat—no advice but curious to read any responses.

I heard the entry level CVA’s shoot well enough for non-scoped ranges. But like you, I’m also planning on hunting another state that allows scopes, so I’d like something accurate enough to reach out to 150 yards or so. Not sure if I need to spend more to do that.

[Night goat]

The simple answer to "should I get into muzzleloading"

Is simple as hell. If you are interested in it, buy a gun that you like, and start shooting. Guaranteed, there wont be the same gun that shoots the same load twice

If you wanna get into it, buy a gun, start shooting, figure out your own formula for accuracy, per gun, hit targets, kill kritters

[Night goat]

To me, muzzleloading is to the gun world as to which fly fishing is to the angling world

[lamrith]

So can anyone eleborate a bit on the "NW Legal" ML rifles?  Since WA changed this year to allowing 209's how does that change what a person would need to buy?  I just skimmed the ML regulations and I no longer see anything about being open to elements?

Muzzleloader Regulations
1 Definitions.
a Muzzleloader: A firearm that is
loaded from the muzzle and uses black
powder or a black powder substitute as
recommended by the manufacturer for
use in all muzzleloading firearms
b A muzzleloading firearm shall be
considered loaded if a powder charge
and a projectile, either shot or single
projectile are in the barrel and the
barrel or breech is capped or primed
2 It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a
muzzleloading firearm that does not meet
the following specifications:
a A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must
have a single or double barrel, rifled or
smooth-bored
b A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used
for deer must be 40 caliber or larger
Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used
in a smoothbore of 60 caliber or larger
for deer
c A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or
handgun used for all other big game
must be 45 caliber or larger
d Persons lawfully hunting small game
with a double barrel, muzzleloading
shotgun may keep both barrels loaded
e A muzzleloading handgun must have
a single or double barrel of at least
eight inches, must be rifled, and must
be capable of being loaded with fortyfive
grains or more of black powder
or black powder substitute per the
manufacturer's recommendations It
is unlawful for any person to carry
or have in his possession any firearm
while in the field muzzleloader
hunting, during an muzzleloader
season specified for that area,
except for modern handguns carried
for personal protection Modern
handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game
during an muzzleloader, big game
hunting season
f A muzzleloading handgun used for big
game must be 45 caliber or larger
g A handgun designed to be used with
black powder, including black powder
percussion revolvers, can be used to
hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits,
and snowshoe hares
3 In addition to the above requirements,
it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a
muzzleloading hunting season using a
firearm that does not meet the following
specifications for a muzzleloader As in
the past sabots are allowed Any type of
projectile is allowed
a Ignition is to be wheel lock,
matchlock, flintlock, or percussion
Primers designed to be used in
modern cartridges are legal
b Sights must be open, peep, or of other
open sight design Fiber optic sights
are legal Telescopic sights or sights
containing glass are prohibited
c It is unlawful to have any electrical
device or equipment attached to a
muzzleloading firearm while hunting
d Those persons lawfully hunting
big game with a double barrel
muzzleloader may only keep one barrel
loaded
4 Muzzleloading firearms used during a
modern firearm season are not required
to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel
restrictions

The kits I have seen in the past all converted the gun to use the other musket cap style primers as well as the open breech plug.  Are there new kits now that are open and 209?  Or do you just buy the std gun (Say CVA Optima V2) and move on with life?

[Killmore]

No need to buy a northwest legal gun, if you do then you will be converting . I bought the optima about 7 years ago so I converted which is very easy. You do not have to have the primmer open to the elements. But do have to have open sights

[Killmore]

also, I changed mine to a peep sight which sets on a rail that one could add a scope if needed. The folks at muzzleloader.com has every thing you need.

[Alex08]

I’d recomend a cva optima its pretty afordable at around the 250-350$ price range its what i have and they are great quality when i got mine it was a tad off at 50 yards i adjust the sights and boom dead on. Now i can hit 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards all day long with it and you can mount a scope on it easily without having to remove the iron sights.

[bkaech]

CVA optima is exactly what I have and love it. New wa regs mean you can use just about any muzzle loader. I recommend a break action in-line as they are simple and protect your goods from the elements. Also if you can make it to Muzzleloader Supply on river road in puyallup the owner is a wealth of knowledge and can get you started. The only thing I disagree with him on is I would stay away from powerbelt bullets, they don’t have the terminal performance of better bullets such as Barnes.

[Mongo Hunter]

Ive been running a CVA Elkhorn for years and taken a couple deer with it, no complaints. comes with all the breach plugs you need if theres a state that has some limitation and I threw on QD rings for the same reason. I haven't used in in WA in a while, I had it set up for out of state but I was shocked at the groups I could get out of it. At the time I used power belts but I'm sure theres better stuff now. ML is a bit cheaper to get into than bow IMO.

[lamrith]

Thanks a bunch guys!

I was thinking about the Accura, but I think I will go with the Optima for a starting point.  I liked the adjustable trigger and better barrel finish of the accura, just do not want to jump that deep into the lake on the 1st one in case I find I just do not like the ML format.  I was going to buy this week but some jerk buddy of mine made sure I saw the sale on some other gear I have been wanting and I spent my play $.  DOH!

For those that have an Optima, in my research I found a few threads that mention if you are unhappy with the trigger you can send it back to CVA and they can adjust/lower it down to around 3.5# pull.  I have learned this last year with my 308 that a lighter/cleaner trigger can make all the difference in the world for groups.

[lamrith]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

[Mongo Hunter]

Get a "range rod" the ones under the barrel suck for all day use. and yeah pryrodex pellets and speed loaders are awesome. also a cleaning kit for JUST black powder.

[Night goat]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

Depends if you want a traditional old fashion gun or a modern muzzy

[WapitiTalk1]

See this is on sale at Midway Larry. Not sure if it’s a good one?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1073519314/thompson-center-impact-muzzleloading-rifle-50-caliber-synthetic-stock-26-blue-barrel

[Night goat]

TC used to be good but ive heard rumors about them now being junk since they got bought out, just a gun shop rumor tho.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifles/muzzleloader-kits/traditionstm-kentucky-rifle-kit.html thats what I built

Admittedly, its been an on-going project over the last 15 years. Built it as a kit as a noise maker, lost interest, got back into it, refinished it, made parts fit better.... Shot it a bit, got good with it, misplaced it, the. Found it, messed up my barrel, now have a new barrel amd am refurbishing it, going to cut down the stock, make some custom fits to it.....

The nice thing about a kit gun (not a kit as everything needed to shoot all in one box, but one you built and fit and finish) is that there is no wrong or right way to do it... You get a fairly nice barrel, and everything else you can make to fit your person. Bust out the handsaws, chiseled, carving knives and go to town. My Kentucky is my rifle, its a good intro to gun building, and once im done with my 3rd major round of mods, i will have a one of a kind hunting rifle that actually shoots well

[Night goat]

I may be long winded on the subject, however, I strongly advocate getting into it

We need a better photo uploader on hunt wa... Cant get my phone n hunt wa to get along

[bkaech]

Thanks a bunch guys!

I was thinking about the Accura, but I think I will go with the Optima for a starting point.  I liked the adjustable trigger and better barrel finish of the accura, just do not want to jump that deep into the lake on the 1st one in case I find I just do not like the ML format.  I was going to buy this week but some jerk buddy of mine made sure I saw the sale on some other gear I have been wanting and I spent my play $.  DOH!

For those that have an Optima, in my research I found a few threads that mention if you are unhappy with the trigger you can send it back to CVA and they can adjust/lower it down to around 3.5# pull.  I have learned this last year with my 308 that a lighter/cleaner trigger can make all the difference in the world for groups.

I love the trigger on my optima, never considered changing anything about it. But I’ve shot rifles with  terribly creepy triggers for years,  so I am easily pleased with anything resembling a good trigger.

[bkaech]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

For now.... just bullets, powder, and caps. Also cleaning stuff.

Great thing about muzzleloaders is that you are a reloaded for every shot, so it’s to experiment. I recommend 777 pellets (along as you get a 209 primer gun) they are simple and easier to clean than pyrodex. And Barnes bullets, or any sabotted bullet that shots well from your gun. Shoot and experiment until you have a combo you’re happy with to hunt with, then worry about buying any extras (speed loaders, cappers, bullet starters, anything else)

[lamrith]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

For now.... just bullets, powder, and caps. Also cleaning stuff.

Great thing about muzzleloaders is that you are a reloaded for every shot, so it’s to experiment. I recommend 777 pellets (along as you get a 209 primer gun) they are simple and easier to clean than pyrodex. And Barnes bullets, or any sabotted bullet that shots well from your gun. Shoot and experiment until you have a combo you’re happy with to hunt with, then worry about buying any extras (speed loaders, cappers, bullet starters, anything else)

Are Sabots fairly accurate?  Just surprising to me that having a plastic guide around a bullet at the speeds/pressures involved would be sloppy and affect accuracy?  I would think a solid bullet would be better?

[bobcat]

For a non sabot bullet I've always wanted to try Thor bullets.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/thor-bullet-sizing-pack.html

[Night goat]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

For now.... just bullets, powder, and caps. Also cleaning stuff.

Great thing about muzzleloaders is that you are a reloaded for every shot, so it’s to experiment. I recommend 777 pellets (along as you get a 209 primer gun) they are simple and easier to clean than pyrodex. And Barnes bullets, or any sabotted bullet that shots well from your gun. Shoot and experiment until you have a combo you’re happy with to hunt with, then worry about buying any extras (speed loaders, cappers, bullet starters, anything else)

Are Sabots fairly accurate?  Just surprising to me that having a plastic guide around a bullet at the speeds/pressures involved would be sloppy and affect accuracy?  I would think a solid bullet would be better?

Sabots CAN be highly accurate

However pay attention to the twist rate of the barrel you are going to be shooting them out of.

They are about useless in my Kentucky rifle, as I have a barrel that has a 1:66 twist rate, which is far too slow for a Sabot, even a 1:48 is still a traditional barrel for patched roundballs, once you get into slmething with say a 1:28 twist then a sabot can perform. Same with all other conicals.

With minie balls/conical bullets a 1:48 is starting to get into that realm, but...

There is nothing wrong with shooting a patched round ball, just like anything with a muzzleloader, it takes time dedication and practice to dial in that perfect load


Here is a copy and paste from another muzzleloader forum




A fast twist barrel such as a 1-20, 1-24, 1-28 even to some extent the 1-32 twist are made to shoot sabots or conical bullets the best. The weight of the projectile which is normally in direct correlation to its length will be effected by the speed of the twist and the cut of the rifling. But besides the weight of the bullet you must also consider the amount and type of powder you are shooting.

In my White Rifles which have a 1-20 on the .451 caliber and a 1-24 on the .504 caliber they are conical shooting masters. But I attribute a lot of that not only to the twist but the cut of the rifling. Still both of them will shoot sabot loads just fine.

My numerous 1-28 twist rifles tend to be excellent sabots shooters and pretty good conical shooters. But the amazing thing is, lower the powder charge and many of them will shoot patched roundball very well. In my Knight LK rifles for instance, as long as I stay under 70 grains, the favorite being 60 grains of 2f powder, they will really lay a roundball down range.

In my Lyman Great Plains Hunter which has a 1-32 twist, when I was breaking the rifle in and getting used to it, I found that 50 grains of powder and it shoots roundball as well as any of my rifles. But it also shoots Powerbelts, maxi ball, and even more heavy conical bullets with larger powder charges.

Then you get to the 1-48 twist barrels commonly found in many traditional rifles. They will shoot just about anything once you find the right powder charge. Some better then others, depending on the make of the rifle. So here is where I believe the cut of the rifling comes more into play. I have a Traditions Hawkens Woodsman with a 1-48 that shoots 240 grain sabots excellent. But think of it, a round ball is 177 grains so a 240 grain XTP is not that much bigger.

I have normally found the 1-56, 1-60, 1-66, and 1-70 twist rifles of mine shoot roundball the best. And not much other then roundball. But then the rifle was made to shoot roundball.

So the reason so many bullets are suggested when someone asks... what kind of projectile will my rifle shoot? Well there are many it might shoot depending on the twist and cut of the rifling. And then there are others that might work for someone else, that it will not shoot.

[Night goat]

The only science to muzzleloading is trial and error

[bkaech]

So a follow up, to keep things in one place.

What are the recommended tools/items for a 1st time ML owner to buy right off the bat?

I have seen threads about different powders, some love pyrodex, some say it makes carbon ridges making bullet seating difficult.  Some mentioned BH209 powder.

I thought years ago I heard someone (maybe at range) mention speedloaders and that they are highly recommended so you can pre-measure powder at home and have it the same every time at range or hunting?

For now.... just bullets, powder, and caps. Also cleaning stuff.

Great thing about muzzleloaders is that you are a reloaded for every shot, so it’s to experiment. I recommend 777 pellets (along as you get a 209 primer gun) they are simple and easier to clean than pyrodex. And Barnes bullets, or any sabotted bullet that shots well from your gun. Shoot and experiment until you have a combo you’re happy with to hunt with, then worry about buying any extras (speed loaders, cappers, bullet starters, anything else)

Are Sabots fairly accurate?  Just surprising to me that having a plastic guide around a bullet at the speeds/pressures involved would be sloppy and affect accuracy?  I would think a solid bullet would be better?

For inline muzzelloaders sabots are more accurate. Chuckhawks.com is a good start for researching this kind of stuff, several articles explaining why for this type of topic.