Isle Royale Wolf Transfer - Emergency Action

[SuperX]

How Conveneint!
Wolf Advocates want to reclassify the 23 North American subspecies into 5 subspecies, anyone who has followed this wolf fiasco can see that these specific 5 classifications will benefit their goal of legitimizing transplants of larger species on top of smaller subspecies and will benefit protecting wolves in specific regions that they want to protected from being delisted.

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

North American wolf subspecies distribution according to Goldman (1944). These subspecies are included in MSW3 2005.
For North America, in 1944 the zoologist Edward Goldman recognized as many as 23 subspecies based on morphology.[44] In 1959, E. Raymond Hall proposed that there had been 24 subspecies of lupus in North America.[45] In 1970, L. David Mech proposed that there was "probably far too many sub specific designations...in use" as most did not exhibit enough points of differentiation to be classified as a separate subspecies.[46] The 24 subspecies were accepted by many authorities in 1981 and these were based on morphological or geographical differences, or a unique history.[47] In 1995, the American mammologist Robert M. Nowak analyzed data on the skull morphology of wolf specimens from around the world. For North America, he proposed that there were only five subspecies of gray wolf. These include a large-toothed Arctic wolf named C. l. arctos, a large wolf from Alaska and western Canada named C. l. occidentalis, a small wolf from southeastern Canada named C. l. lycaon, a small wolf from the southwestern U.S. named C. l. baileyi and a moderate-sized wolf that was originally found from Texas to Hudson Bay and from Oregon to Newfoundland named C. l. nubilus.[48][49] This proposal was not reflected in the taxonomic classification of Canis lupus subspecies in Mammal Species of the World (third edition, 2005).[9]

I prefer to think it is science getting better at genetic analysis than some hippy conspiracy.

[idaho guy]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

Sounds like Bearpaw was right they will remove subspecies to fit their agenda and cover their tracks. 23 subspecies are now going to be 5? really, has anyone seen them create less subspecies? Usually they create ten more salamander types so they can create a crisis

[idaho guy]

How Conveneint!
Wolf Advocates want to reclassify the 23 North American subspecies into 5 subspecies, anyone who has followed this wolf fiasco can see that these specific 5 classifications will benefit their goal of legitimizing transplants of larger species on top of smaller subspecies and will benefit protecting wolves in specific regions that they want to protected from being delisted.

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

North American wolf subspecies distribution according to Goldman (1944). These subspecies are included in MSW3 2005.
For North America, in 1944 the zoologist Edward Goldman recognized as many as 23 subspecies based on morphology.[44] In 1959, E. Raymond Hall proposed that there had been 24 subspecies of lupus in North America.[45] In 1970, L. David Mech proposed that there was "probably far too many sub specific designations...in use" as most did not exhibit enough points of differentiation to be classified as a separate subspecies.[46] The 24 subspecies were accepted by many authorities in 1981 and these were based on morphological or geographical differences, or a unique history.[47] In 1995, the American mammologist Robert M. Nowak analyzed data on the skull morphology of wolf specimens from around the world. For North America, he proposed that there were only five subspecies of gray wolf. These include a large-toothed Arctic wolf named C. l. arctos, a large wolf from Alaska and western Canada named C. l. occidentalis, a small wolf from southeastern Canada named C. l. lycaon, a small wolf from the southwestern U.S. named C. l. baileyi and a moderate-sized wolf that was originally found from Texas to Hudson Bay and from Oregon to Newfoundland named C. l. nubilus.[48][49] This proposal was not reflected in the taxonomic classification of Canis lupus subspecies in Mammal Species of the World (third edition, 2005).[9]

I prefer to think it is science getting better at genetic analysis than some hippy conspiracy.

Better more precise science typically create more subspecies why is this the only one different? 

[JimmyHoffa]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

Sounds like Bearpaw was right they will remove subspecies to fit their agenda and cover their tracks. 23 subspecies are now going to be 5? really, has anyone seen them create less subspecies? Usually they create ten more salamander types so they can create a crisis

Yeah, they like to do that with fish.  Each river being so specific, so they can't move fish around (like hatcheries).  But if they applied that to wolves they couldn't move between specific habitats.  Whatever suits the agenda.

[SuperX]

How Conveneint!
Wolf Advocates want to reclassify the 23 North American subspecies into 5 subspecies, anyone who has followed this wolf fiasco can see that these specific 5 classifications will benefit their goal of legitimizing transplants of larger species on top of smaller subspecies and will benefit protecting wolves in specific regions that they want to protected from being delisted.

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

North American wolf subspecies distribution according to Goldman (1944). These subspecies are included in MSW3 2005.
For North America, in 1944 the zoologist Edward Goldman recognized as many as 23 subspecies based on morphology.[44] In 1959, E. Raymond Hall proposed that there had been 24 subspecies of lupus in North America.[45] In 1970, L. David Mech proposed that there was "probably far too many sub specific designations...in use" as most did not exhibit enough points of differentiation to be classified as a separate subspecies.[46] The 24 subspecies were accepted by many authorities in 1981 and these were based on morphological or geographical differences, or a unique history.[47] In 1995, the American mammologist Robert M. Nowak analyzed data on the skull morphology of wolf specimens from around the world. For North America, he proposed that there were only five subspecies of gray wolf. These include a large-toothed Arctic wolf named C. l. arctos, a large wolf from Alaska and western Canada named C. l. occidentalis, a small wolf from southeastern Canada named C. l. lycaon, a small wolf from the southwestern U.S. named C. l. baileyi and a moderate-sized wolf that was originally found from Texas to Hudson Bay and from Oregon to Newfoundland named C. l. nubilus.[48][49] This proposal was not reflected in the taxonomic classification of Canis lupus subspecies in Mammal Species of the World (third edition, 2005).[9]

I prefer to think it is science getting better at genetic analysis than some hippy conspiracy.

Better more precise science typically create more subspecies why is this the only one different?

I think you're confusing precision (how thinly we can slice it) to accuracy (how much does it match another thing) When these species were named, we couldn't decode the genome at all, now that we have ways to do that, we can compare genetic code more accurately.  This reduction in sub species has happened a lot recently in dinosaurs where they had lots of species identified by morphology (how they look) in the fossil record.  Turns out they were just juvenile versions of already known species.  Scientists love to name stuff they 'discover'.

[bearpaw]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

true, the northern rockies wolf, irremotus is most likely bred completely out of existance by occidentalis, which was transplanted from northern Canada

[bearpaw]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

Sounds like Bearpaw was right they will remove subspecies to fit their agenda and cover their tracks. 23 subspecies are now going to be 5? really, has anyone seen them create less subspecies? Usually they create ten more salamander types so they can create a crisis

Yeah, they like to do that with fish.  Each river being so specific, so they can't move fish around (like hatcheries).  But if they applied that to wolves they couldn't move between specific habitats.  Whatever suits the agenda.

  BINGO!   Whatever suits the agenda.

[SuperX]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

Sounds like Bearpaw was right they will remove subspecies to fit their agenda and cover their tracks. 23 subspecies are now going to be 5? really, has anyone seen them create less subspecies? Usually they create ten more salamander types so they can create a crisis

Yeah, they like to do that with fish.  Each river being so specific, so they can't move fish around (like hatcheries).  But if they applied that to wolves they couldn't move between specific habitats.  Whatever suits the agenda.

Yeah that agenda is the political reality of this, but it doesn't make the science wrong or manipulated.  It doesn't matter if there are thousands of wolves in Canada, we in the US pretend they are extinct unless they occupy our land too.  In the case of wolves, they apparently also have to be in exactly the spaces they occupied before humans.  That is complete bs but that doesn't mean we have to make up ravening super wolves that don't really exist.

[SuperX]

here is another good read on the whole idea of northern canda wolves vs. native ID wolves from ID fish and game

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/there-difference-between-idaho-grey-wolf-and-northern-canadian-wolf

[bearpaw]

here is another good read on the whole idea of northern canda wolves vs. native ID wolves from ID fish and game

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/there-difference-between-idaho-grey-wolf-and-northern-canadian-wolf

They are certainly trying to hide their tracks of guaranteeing the extinction of a sub-specie with the transplant. 

If you want to believe the hype that on one hand that all wolves are the same and on the other hand that all salmon are different that's your choice!

a wolf is a wolf is a wolf... 

[SuperX]

here is another good read on the whole idea of northern canda wolves vs. native ID wolves from ID fish and game

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/there-difference-between-idaho-grey-wolf-and-northern-canadian-wolf

They are certainly trying to hide their tracks of guaranteeing the extinction of a sub-specie with the transplant. 

If you want to believe the hype that on one hand that all wolves are the same and on the other hand that all salmon are different that's your choice!

a wolf is a wolf is a wolf... 

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

I agree in a way that a wolf is a wolf, and think that what we see happening with wolf / game interaction is basic wolf behavior.  Wanton killing, blood lust, killing every animal in a herd, eating prey alive, etc., is what wolves do.  it's the harder side of nature.  Only humans believe in mercy and fairness.

The problem is anthropomorphism.  Humans who don't realize what wolves and nature truly are like are in charge of putting these killing machines in our best elk and deer habitat.  All done in the name of some sort of ideology that is based on emotion not facts.

[Alchase]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

[SuperX]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

Actually I was referring to his confusion of the nomenclature.  Salmon are of the genus Oncorhynchus with 7 different species indicators (in the pacific).  For example King salmon are Oncorhynchus tshawytscha while pink salmon are oncorhynchus gorbuscha.   

Wolves are genus Canis with species Lupis, along side coyotes being genus Canis species  latrans, and a few others like dingos which are peer species with Lupis.  Sub species don't exist for salmon which bearpaws compares to wolves, implying wolves can't be the same if salmon are different.  That isn't true because of subspecies.  Wolves have sub species, notably Canis Lupus Familiarus - note the extra subspecies name - which designates dogs are a sub species of wolves not of coyotes.  So they really can't be compared in the way he says.   

Since this is 10th grade biology I assumed he was talking about something more complex, like the recent wild fish vs. hatchery fish debates and the legal challenges to hatcheries for steelhead in WA.  That wild and hatchery salmon are the same species seems like a true statement.

[bearpaw]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

   Exactly, the hypocrisy is deafening...

[idaho guy]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

Actually I was referring to his confusion of the nomenclature.  Salmon are of the genus Oncorhynchus with 7 different species indicators (in the pacific).  For example King salmon are Oncorhynchus tshawytscha while pink salmon are oncorhynchus gorbuscha.   

Wolves are genus Canis with species Lupis, along side coyotes being genus Canis species  latrans, and a few others like dingos which are peer species with Lupis.  Sub species don't exist for salmon which bearpaws compares to wolves, implying wolves can't be the same if salmon are different.  That isn't true because of subspecies.  Wolves have sub species, notably Canis Lupus Familiarus - note the extra subspecies name - which designates dogs are a sub species of wolves not of coyotes.  So they really can't be compared in the way he says.   

Since this is 10th grade biology I assumed he was talking about something more complex, like the recent wild fish vs. hatchery fish debates and the legal challenges to hatcheries for steelhead in WA.  That wild and hatchery salmon are the same species seems like a true statement.

Wtf?  There was a different subspecies of wolf here . A different much larger wolf was transplanted. We had wolves here before the transplant that is a documented fact. They felt they were not self sustaining and That wolf is most likely gone.They are now removing the original subspecies to cover up screwing us with a much larger wolf which is a lot more problematic to deal with. Besides dinasour s which are all wild azz guess’s based on ancient bones name one North America animal or fish they have taken 23 subspecies and combined them to 5? I have only seen them “discover “additional sub species. And a lot of the new ones seem to be based on little more than location and size.Its not rocket science it just is what it is. I am going wolf hunting tomorrow that’s all we can do at this point.