Deer Antler Point Regs

[jstone]

Ya self control but that’s not the norm anymore
The wife and I discuss that we are not normal people anymore. The norm is no common sense.!!!

[hunter399]

Mule deer hunt this year,my son and I show up at this clear cut.Spot a spike,and another buck on the tree line.I'm almost sure it was a small three point ,but didn't shoot.Even though I had them two deer on game cam for four months before season started.Even knowing that them two bucks been running together all year .But I could not be postive before they got in the timber it was that threepoint ,didn't shoot.
People need to grow up and be sure of there target.

[buckfvr]

Mule deer hunt this year,my son and I show up at this clear cut.Spot a spike,and another buck on the tree line.I'm almost sure it was a small three point ,but didn't shoot.Even though I had them two deer on game cam for four months before season started.Even knowing that them two bucks been running together all year .But I could not be postive before they got in the timber it was that threepoint ,didn't shoot.
People need to grow up and be sure of there target.

Ya self control but that’s not the norm anymore
The wife and I discuss that we are not normal people anymore. The norm is no common sense.!!!

Self control..........certainly in short supply amongst many hunters.  Not shooting obviously young bucks takes self control beyond many hunters capability.  Too much emphasis placed on killing a buck, any buck for that matter.  I support any buck hunts for youth but my personal opinion is adults should let the baby deer walk.

The best hunting in 121 in a long time was enjoyed during the 4pt minimum period.  By the third year, success climbed and better bucks were killed.  SInce whitetail are often small 4pts before they even loose their milk teeth, I dont see how the 4pt rule is asking too much of hunters.  If you cant tell what the buck is, dont shoot, and thats not something any of us should just now be learning.  Ya cant get to the better bucks if you keep killing the young ones.  Success is relevant to effort.

[Bango skank]

I think people shooting the two points is cause they don’t take the tie to look and study the deer. They see something with points and want to shoot them look. Tell me why it is so hard to let a deer walk if your not sure if it’s legal or not?? I do it every year. You don’t have to shoot something.

I think what they are saying is that studies are showing that point restrictions don't seem to be doing any good. Now, IMHO, a negative sidebar to point restrictions(3 point or better) is that a lot of 2 points are shot and killed each year then left for coyotes and magpies and no one knows for sure how many, could be hundreds, could be thousands and then that hunter continues to hunt and may or may not kill another buck. IMO, if you put a 4point restriction on your going to find dead 3 points. IMO, finding one rotting 2 point carcas in a 3 point area is too many. Between 9 of us in the Methow, we have found over 30 since the rule went into effect. You are right jstone, it shouldn't happen, if we are taught to "make sure of our target" then it should be just as automatic to "make sure it has 3", if your confused on either, you don't squeeze the trigger. That being said, I would be in favor of spike restrictions, they are much easier to distinguish for some than trying to put a 3rd point onto a massive 2 point running from you. I also love what Bango suggested, I can't tell you how many Bios and Department guys I have brought it up to myself, DO AWAY WITH COUNTING EYEGUARDS ON MULE DEER, they should not be included as a "legal point" in point restricted areas. Will that alone stop the rotting 2 point carcass problem? No, but I bet it would definatly reduce it.......

Im under no illusions that it would stop it completely, there are just to many slob idiots out there completely lacking in ethics.  But i think it would help to a large extent.  Really though, its all just supposition on my part.  My main concern is whitetail.  And there are things written showing aprs arent helpful, but there are numerous things written contradicting that.  And my own personal experience, state harvest statistics, and my train of logic says that for whitetail at least, aprs are beneficial. 
  As far as the browtine thing, the vast majority of whitetails that have a g2 and a g3 are going to have 1" brows.  When our apr was in effect in 121 and 117, for 4 years, i found a total of 2 non legal bucks killed.  Both were boned out on the spot, heads left behind.  And i found these 2 during those 4 years while hiking and hunting lions post season in an area with very heavy deer hunting pressure.  Seems that deer that tend to have browtines even at a young age (whitetail) dont end up with as many bucks shot and left.  Like the "mistakes" werent happening.  The bucks that i did find could not in any way be mistaken for potential 4pts.  They were simply bucks that were shot by people who dont care about the regs.  Flat out poachers.  These types will do what they do regardless of rules.  I really dont think that making it legal for everybody to shoot anything, so the poachers are no longer poaching, is a good solution.  But i think the fact that there werent a lot of "misidentified" bucks found by myself or anybody i know  indicates that the browtine difference between mule and wt is a big part of the problem.  If i had the power to change the muley regs to not count browtines for a few years, id bet you a couple paychecks that the sub legal bucks found dead would decrease significantly.

[bobcat]

The link in the original post doesn't seem to work. Try this one: https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf

[bigmacc]

I think people shooting the two points is cause they don’t take the tie to look and study the deer. They see something with points and want to shoot them look. Tell me why it is so hard to let a deer walk if your not sure if it’s legal or not?? I do it every year. You don’t have to shoot something.

I think what they are saying is that studies are showing that point restrictions don't seem to be doing any good. Now, IMHO, a negative sidebar to point restrictions(3 point or better) is that a lot of 2 points are shot and killed each year then left for coyotes and magpies and no one knows for sure how many, could be hundreds, could be thousands and then that hunter continues to hunt and may or may not kill another buck. IMO, if you put a 4point restriction on your going to find dead 3 points. IMO, finding one rotting 2 point carcas in a 3 point area is too many. Between 9 of us in the Methow, we have found over 30 since the rule went into effect. You are right jstone, it shouldn't happen, if we are taught to "make sure of our target" then it should be just as automatic to "make sure it has 3", if your confused on either, you don't squeeze the trigger. That being said, I would be in favor of spike restrictions, they are much easier to distinguish for some than trying to put a 3rd point onto a massive 2 point running from you. I also love what Bango suggested, I can't tell you how many Bios and Department guys I have brought it up to myself, DO AWAY WITH COUNTING EYEGUARDS ON MULE DEER, they should not be included as a "legal point" in point restricted areas. Will that alone stop the rotting 2 point carcass problem? No, but I bet it would definatly reduce it.......

Im under no illusions that it would stop it completely, there are just to many slob idiots out there completely lacking in ethics.  But i think it would help to a large extent.  Really though, its all just supposition on my part.  My main concern is whitetail.  And there are things written showing aprs arent helpful, but there are numerous things written contradicting that.  And my own personal experience, state harvest statistics, and my train of logic says that for whitetail at least, aprs are beneficial. 
  As far as the browtine thing, the vast majority of whitetails that have a g2 and a g3 are going to have 1" brows.  When our apr was in effect in 121 and 117, for 4 years, i found a total of 2 non legal bucks killed.  Both were boned out on the spot, heads left behind.  And i found these 2 during those 4 years while hiking and hunting lions post season in an area with very heavy deer hunting pressure.  Seems that deer that tend to have browtines even at a young age (whitetail) dont end up with as many bucks shot and left.  Like the "mistakes" werent happening.  The bucks that i did find could not in any way be mistaken for potential 4pts.  They were simply bucks that were shot by people who dont care about the regs.  Flat out poachers.  These types will do what they do regardless of rules.  I really dont think that making it legal for everybody to shoot anything, so the poachers are no longer poaching, is a good solution.  But i think the fact that there werent a lot of "misidentified" bucks found by myself or anybody i know  indicates that the browtine difference between mule and wt is a big part of the problem.  If i had the power to change the muley regs to not count browtines for a few years, id bet you a couple paychecks that the sub legal bucks found dead would decrease significantly.

I  agree with your statement, especially with your last sentence, I would make that bet also concerning Mule deer. Like I said in my previous post, I think stumbling onto rotting 2 point mule deer carcasses would be drastically reduced in some areas and putting a "spike restriction" in effect would let the "baby deer" have a better chance to live another year compared to the chances a 2 point has with the 3 point restriction in place. Take away the eye guard being counted as a point(no matter how long it is) concerning mule deer and we may have something a little better than we have now. Keep the eye guard rule permanent and use the point restriction as needed, no spikes for a few years which would actually help thin out some of the big 2 points running around then go back to the 3 point rule for a few years if needed. The other options involve takeaways from us as hunters which we have already sacrificed enough in a lot of peoples opinions. The issues affecting our herds are plain as day and are many, IMHO, most could be  tackled and fixed to put forth a quality product for hunters in this state in a matter of 6-8 years, but, like others that I trust and respect have said, these herds being managed for us as hunters are a thing of the past. Things and issues will be talked about, meetings held etc. etc. to opeese us and in the end our quality of hunting will have its ups and downs with the ups being a little worse than the last cycle of ups and the downs a little worse than the last down cycle. We will continue to slowly be chipped away at during the declines as far as time in the field, how many of us will be allowed to be out there and so on, we as hunters will be the most effected in the name of thriving and growing predator populations, which IMHO is the number 1 issue affecting our deer herds, especially in certain select areas of our state, not the ONLY issue but THE big one.  Heck, just getting lion numbers down to levels they had pre hound ban would make a HUGE difference in places like the Methow in a matter of 5 or so years, throw in more aggressive seasons, etc to reduce bear numbers and your looking at even a better outlook for the herd which would mean better opportunity for us as hunters. Being realistic, we know that nothing is going to be done about the wolf issue in the near future, hopefully not to far off but tackling exploding cat and bear populations in places like the Methow, where the herd has been decimated could be addressed right now if they were serious about growing that herd without negatively affecting us as hunters or the precious wolves. Aggressively putting a big dent in cougar and bear populations in some areas would show positive trends in some herds within a couple years, period. Are they managing herds for us as hunters? Like some have said, NO, they manage them just enough to keep us hanging on, there are other irons in the fire that are far more important. IMHO, the department could earn respect, heal some wounds and repair some bridges with hunters and sportsmen of this state by maybe implementing some of the many ideas, that yes, selfishly(for us as hunters) would actually benefit growing our herds. No one is asking to eliminate cougars and bears in this state, just reduce them enough where they arnt killing thousands of deer, attacking livestock, killing pets and ending up on city streets and dragging there kills under bridges inside city limits. I have said before, its a matter of time before real bad things happen in certain areas with more and more predators on the landscape, throw in declining prey numbers and its just an old fashioned powder keg that the fuse is becoming shorter and shorter. Sorry for the rant, it comes from growing up in a time where our herds were actually a priority and seeing a bear or cougar was pretty neat because it was so rare, in the Methow at least.... , Once again, sorry for the rant. 

[Bango skank]

The rant is fully justified.  Predators absolutely are the biggest issue imo.  If youre able, get down to the tri cities for the march commission meeting.  Cougsr seasons are the hot topic there.  The more people thst pour in from across the state to testify, the more of an impact we will have.  And you especially have a lot of years of history and knowledge, the trick would be condensing what you have to say into a 3 minute time slot.  But you could write a giant damn novel or two to the commission via email.  Maybe one or two will even read it.

[buckfvr]

If APRs dont work, get rid of them......if they DO work, quit telling us they dont work when we ask for them in region 1, AND you still have them in region 1 se. wa. (whitetail)

[Bango skank]

Me: aprs work, please reinstate the 4pt apr in the ne

Wdfw: aprs dont do anything, theyre a social issue

Me: so please remove all aprs on all species statewide

Wdfw: we cant do that, aprs are an important tool for managing healthy game populations

Me: 

[bobcat]

Several years ago the WDFW wanted to remove the 3 point minimum restriction on mule deer. It was in the proposals when they were in the process of setting the hunting seasons, and due to the overwhelming comments against the proposal, the 3 point restriction remained. Just FYI, in case some of you don't remember that.

[bigmacc]

Several years ago the WDFW wanted to remove the 3 point minimum restriction on mule deer. It was in the proposals when they were in the process of setting the hunting seasons, and due to the overwhelming comments against the proposal, the 3 point restriction remained. Just FYI, in case some of you don't remember that.

Yep, I also remember that, I actually hand delivered a letter to an agent stating I was all for it(lifting the 3 point rule) but supported the spike ban I talked about prior. By the sounds of it, it was me and a rag-tag handful of old fools that were the only ones that supported removing it 

[Humptulips]

There is nothing wrong with the horns on deer. There just is not enough deer!
Do something about predation and we can stop arguing about what is a proper sized buck to shoot at. Hunters are not the problem.

[bigmacc]

There is nothing wrong with the horns on deer. There just is not enough deer!
Do something about predation and we can stop arguing about what is a proper sized buck to shoot at. Hunters are not the problem.

 

It really isn't that complicated, kind of what I said a few posts ago, aggressively tackling the predator issue would make a HUGE  difference within a few years in some areas, just addressing lions and bears. It would also help mend some fences between the department and hunters. Remember, no one is asking for lions and bears to be wiped out of the state, but a big reduction in some areas would be a nice bone to throw to us hunters. Yep I know, some say I,m a dreamer and they are probably right.

[dvolmer]

I hunted mule deer in Eastern Washington in the 1980's and early 90's before point restrictions.  When they came out I was not happy.  But after they were in effect for a couple of years, the deer hunting became way way better.  Especially in areas of wheat fields, CRP, and sage country.  These areas have minimal escapement for legal shooter bucks. The public access areas and many of the private property in these areas are "Pounded" with hunting pressure.  The buck to doe ratio in these areas (Washtucna, Hooper, Prescott, Waitsburg, Dayton foot hills, etc) was terrible before the three point rule.  Since the three point restriction has taken affect, we have shot more deer with higher hunter success and on top of that, we have shot bigger and more mature bucks too.  The difference is and was so drastic, that the outcome isn't even debatable for me!

There are a few negative impacts (like large 2X2's surviving and damaging the gene pool) to any thing that is changed but the only other option is to go to a draw only hunt for the entire state and the state will never allow that due to loss of revenue and the majority of the hunters in this state will never agree to sitting out years when they don't draw a tag.

[Okanagan]

Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Work
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf

• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.
• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.

One of the truisms of life is that we get more of what we protect.  Do we want more spikes as a percentage of the bucks in a herd?  Sometimes we are protecting something different than what we think we are. 

IME/O protecting spikes results eventually in a herd that has a LOT of big old spikes and mature bucks with small racks and few points.  Simple genetics.  California had a 2 point or better buck season for decades and resulted in a high percentage of spike bucks and huge gnarly old fork horns, though maybe they always had a lot of spikes in California.  I hunted it after 50 years of fork horn or better seasons.

In most areas, a healthy 18 month old buck with good genetics will normally be a fork horn, and some will have 3 or more points per side.  I'd like to protect THOSE bucks with their exceptional genes rather than spikes. 

In Texas behind fences, they kill spikes, protect multi-tined young bucks-- and a high percentage of bucks have BIG antlers. 

I have hunted 4 point or better late mule deer seasons and enjoyed them the most of any deer hunting I've done, even though success was low. 

Protect spikes?  With respect, my opinion differs.