Less mountain goat tags coming?

[Tbar]

How do you see it on the Manson sheep hunt. If you think that the Manson unit can sustain more permits your missing the point. The Manson unit is not a quality unit compared to areas like Chelan Butte due to the fact that the sheep harvested there are not the older age more mature sheep. The state just can't increase the number of permits because the sheep population is high. They also have to manage for larger rams. The biologist do listen to the public as I know of a lot of hunters that have interacted with the biologists. Why do you think you are required to get your sheep pinned by WDFW when it's harvested? Its because the WDFW can see size age, etc and take that into consideration when the number of permits is determined.

Several incorrect statements in the above post. They plug sheep because it's the law, period. They could do a much better job than they have done in many years. Age structure within a population absolutely can be manipulated and is not an excuse to limit harvest,  it may be a reason for taking an action. There is little attention paid to large populations and considerably less if any to many pocket populations. Mandatory reports help but seldom, especially in goats,  provide enough of a sample size to adequately inform species management.

[Skyvalhunter]

You actually think that when they plug them they don't pay attention to their size? The took a picture of my Manson sheep so don't fool yourself they don't know what's being harvested. Take the Swakane permits for instance. There was some monsters in there. However with the 2 permits and the auction tag happening several years in a row the quality of the sheep dropped off. So you can over harvest a herd thus dropping the quality in the herd. You don't see permit holders shooting the smaller rams in a herd. They hold out, scout, pattern the larger rams.

[Tbar]

They absolutely collect easy data when they inspect them, however that is not why they plug. They have various ways to control age structure. They still manage goats with few data, therefore arbitrarily adjusting season and numbers. Usually taking a conservative approach. Also the goat sheep comparison is a terrible choice. Sheep populations are known with more than adequate accuracy goats however are a guess at best. I would also say that goats are not very hard to count either, just expensive.

[Skyvalhunter]

So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can. Unless some university study was done they have to go with science and best estimates. The population can vary a lot if a parasite or other disease is impacted the goat population. So they can't just throw tags out there to pacify some hunters desire to draw a tag. Sure more tags would be nice and generate the state money but I applaud them for not wanting to do that like they did the other species.

[Tbar]

From my recollection there was a lot of controversy when the biologist in charge was brought on at wdfw and was touted as an anti-hunter.  In looking as some of the papers he has written that seems to be a valid concern.  In fact in looking at what he has authored one would have to wonder how he has time to do his actual job.   I would bet if someone could go back and see when  Harris came on it would track with the timing of reduction in  goat tags. 

I know when I had my tag there were so many goats it was unreal.  Tons of nannies and kids so from my observation reproduction was not an issue.  I know I kept notes on the numbers seen and sent it in with my report.  Could be that if they only have one hunter sending in notes on what was seen then they think there are few goats.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Harris25

There is an paper here by Harris on the negative effects of trophy hunting. 

I too think that this is a crock when it comes to tag numbers for goats.    We can comment as I did but will do little good....

Rich no longer works for WDFW. He works in Montana.

[MerriamMagician]

Washington has the highest population of goats of any lower 48 state, yet gives out the fewest tags. That should tell you all you need to know about WDFW biologists and its ability to competently manage the wildlife here.

[jackelope]

From my recollection there was a lot of controversy when the biologist in charge was brought on at wdfw and was touted as an anti-hunter.  In looking as some of the papers he has written that seems to be a valid concern.  In fact in looking at what he has authored one would have to wonder how he has time to do his actual job.   I would bet if someone could go back and see when  Harris came on it would track with the timing of reduction in  goat tags. 

I know when I had my tag there were so many goats it was unreal.  Tons of nannies and kids so from my observation reproduction was not an issue.  I know I kept notes on the numbers seen and sent it in with my report.  Could be that if they only have one hunter sending in notes on what was seen then they think there are few goats.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Harris25

There is an paper here by Harris on the negative effects of trophy hunting. 

I too think that this is a crock when it comes to tag numbers for goats.    We can comment as I did but will do little good....

Rich no longer works for WDFW. He works in Montana.

"retired" was wrong. My bad.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well if you go to Montana it's like retiring

[sagemd]

So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can. Unless some university study was done they have to go with science and best estimates. The population can vary a lot if a parasite or other disease is impacted the goat population. So they can't just throw tags out there to pacify some hunters desire to draw a tag. Sure more tags would be nice and generate the state money but I applaud them for not wanting to do that like they did the other species.

"So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can."
They are not doing the best they can do! That is a very lame excuse.
We have discussed before ways WDFW could raise funds for goat studies. (Goat tags in overpopulated areas.)
There are other ways to fund studies if they wanted to. But as you stated " this is Washington not going to happen"
I and many other hunters (not anti-hunters) will donate $ for this.

[fishngamereaper]

They could hire me as summer help and I'll spend June and July in the backcountry counting goat's... seems easy enough.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.

[sagemd]

Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.

Skyvalhunter. You get it approved through WDFW.
I'll work with fisgndgamereaper to fund his summer counts.

[jstone]

I don’t have all summer but I would do a four day weekend and count.!!
Work together
The ready of the state won’t

[sagemd]

I don’t have all summer but I would do a four day weekend and count.!!
Work together
The ready of the state won’t

I'm with you jstone.
I'll give my time counting and raising funds.
If WDFW is willing to take our counts .

But I not think they want to make any changes to the way they do things.

[fishngamereaper]

Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.

Oh I have... don't make assumptions...

Unfortunately when some dude not affiliated with wdfw calls the region 3 bio to relay info about game populations, goat, elk etc....the info most often gets round filed...they sure aren't going to use it to determine herd health.

So if they want solid boots on the ground info from guys that know what they are looking for and where to look, they need to think about other ways of doing it, cause right now it's not working..