Seeking help navigating WDFW for a WAC change

[Netminder01]

For nearly 10 years, I've been trying to get a special use permit from WDFW to import Procambarus Clarkii (Red swamp crawfish) strictly for consumption after they were classified as invasive in 2004. My frustration has increased over the years as there appears to be an unwillingness to engage in any sort of solution-based dialogue, disregarding an invitation to reasonably discuss via Zoom. I continue to be pointed to a few small, unreliable local fisheries and Facebook groups harvesting native crayfish.

Going forward, I'd like to consider all viable solutions that can lead to a successful change or modification to WAC 220-640-040(1)(c). I'm uncertain if I need to start up a petition, hire a lawyer, escalate up their chain of command, put the measure on the ballot, etc. My desired outcome is only that a special, use-case permit be issued so I can host my crawfish boil again using live crawfish from the gulf south. I promise not to let a single one go.   

Can anyone help?

[pianoman9701]

You probably already have this, but...
https://www.sbctc.edu/colleges-staff/policies-rules/wac-rules#:~:text=How%20to%20Request%20a%20WAC,a%20State%20Administrative%20Rule%20form.

[Netminder01]

You probably already have this, but...
https://www.sbctc.edu/colleges-staff/policies-rules/wac-rules#:~:text=How%20to%20Request%20a%20WAC,a%20State%20Administrative%20Rule%20form.

I do, but thanks for posting. It felt like the approach I had been taking was an informal version of that petition. Wouldn't the petition get the same answer from the same group?

Maybe what I need is counsel on which approach would most likely yield my desired outcome...?

[pickardjw]

I had a coworker import some from Louisiana in 2018 or so. Not sure how he got around this if was in place then. Looking at a website that ships they clearly outline that they don't ship to WA...Sorry, not a particularly helpful comment.

Washington Crawfish company sells local caught signal crawfish. I emailed with the owner a bit last year just talking strategy for my personal traps. Nice guy.

If you need signatures let me know, I'll sign.

[bigtex]

Ain't gonna happen. Most states (including WA) are getting pretty hard-core against invasive species. I don't foresee WDFW backtracking or issuing permits because someone wants a crayfish boil.

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[Netminder01]

I had a coworker import some from Louisiana in 2018 or so. Not sure how he got around this if was in place then. Looking at a website that ships they clearly outline that they don't ship to WA...Sorry, not a particularly helpful comment.

Washington Crawfish company sells local caught signal crawfish. I emailed with the owner a bit last year just talking strategy for my personal traps. Nice guy.

If you need signatures let me know, I'll sign.

Thanks for offering but no, signals are not what I'm seeking in this case. I've tried more than once to use local fisheries and/or suppliers; it doesn't work partly because of the amount I need available for the boil; around 400lbs.

[Netminder01]

Ain't gonna happen. Most states (including WA) are getting pretty hard-core against invasive species. I don't foresee WDFW backtracking or issuing permits because someone wants a crayfish boil.

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Can you elaborate? That's basically the stance I'm getting from DFW with the reply highlighting that 'some people' are prone to let remaining bugs go in local streams. I'm willing to pay for a permit that would hold me responsible for any being released or any potential 'damage'. Why is this not good enough?

[bigtex]

Ain't gonna happen. Most states (including WA) are getting pretty hard-core against invasive species. I don't foresee WDFW backtracking or issuing permits because someone wants a crayfish boil.

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Can you elaborate? That's basically the stance I'm getting from DFW with the reply highlighting that 'some people' are prone to let remaining bugs go in local streams. I'm willing to pay for a permit that would hold me responsible for any being released or any potential 'damage'. Why is this not good enough?

Lets say WDFW was to give you a permit where you're held liable for release into the environment. In 2 years when a stream/lake is infested with these guys how would WDFW prove you were the one who let them go? They couldn't, it could've been you, or it could've been someone who illegally imported/transported them into the state.

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[Netminder01]

Ain't gonna happen. Most states (including WA) are getting pretty hard-core against invasive species. I don't foresee WDFW backtracking or issuing permits because someone wants a crayfish boil.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Can you elaborate? That's basically the stance I'm getting from DFW with the reply highlighting that 'some people' are prone to let remaining bugs go in local streams. I'm willing to pay for a permit that would hold me responsible for any being released or any potential 'damage'. Why is this not good enough?

Lets say WDFW was to give you a permit where you're held liable for release into the environment. In 2 years when a stream/lake is infested with these guys how would WDFW prove you were the one who let them go? They couldn't, it could've been you, or it could've been someone who illegally imported/transported them into the state.

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I realize we're slowly eeking towards a world where there's a tendency for proof that someone didn't do something before being allowed to partake in it but, how about this:

1. Pay for an enforcement officer to visit the boil, checking & ensuring bugs are going into boiling water, not a nearby creek.
2. The permit number can be tied to import orders, geographically tied to any future potential invasive species hike.
3. Keep and weigh eaten shells with the uneaten but cooked bugs to report back to DFW, like a catch card.

I'm not looking for a way to skirt the law and let bugs go. I'm looking for a legal way for me to import the seafood I want to share & eat with friends.
 

[Remnar]

Get some spot prawns they are way tastier ! Or a Dungie feed .

Honestly your plea is  weak . IMHOP

[Netminder01]

Get some spot prawns they are way tastier ! Or a Dungie feed .

Honestly your plea is  weak . IMHOP

Appreciate your feedback but my view is DFW's position is weak.

I believe anyone should be allowed to responsibly consume whatever legal food of their choosing. The issue here is the length of invasive classification and the lack of a permitting process that allows restaurants and consumers alike to partake. Convince me that position is weak.

[Jake Dogfish]

Get some spot prawns they are way tastier ! Or a Dungie feed .

Honestly your plea is  weak . IMHOP

Appreciate your feedback but my view is DFW's position is weak.

I believe anyone should be allowed to responsibly consume whatever legal food of their choosing. The issue here is the length of invasive classification and the lack of a permitting process that allows restaurants and consumers alike to partake. Convince me that position is weak.

No chance.
In the lakes that have non-native crawfish, you are required to kill them before leaving the lake.  Which basically means you have to cook them right there as crawfish don’t keep dead.
I would focus on changing that rule, or get rid of the ridiculous season, it should be year round like Oregon and Idaho. 

[Humptulips]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

[Remnar]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

That was kind of my point also .

Pick the hill you die on .

You Must really love those bugs . Or ....

[pickardjw]

To be fair, Oregon and Minnesota appear to have permit systems for importing crawfish. 

[Netminder01]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

Legislative action? Tell me more

[Netminder01]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

That was kind of my point also .

Pick the hill you die on .

You Must really love those bugs . Or ....

You're getting an invite to my next, legal boil. You'll understand then 

[Netminder01]

To be fair, Oregon and Minnesota appear to have permit systems for importing crawfish. 

 

All I'm seeking is the same sort of permitting process. Seems fair and safe.

[bigtex]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

Legislative action? Tell me more

He's saying contact your state legislator to propose a bill to have a law (not a rule/reg like you're currently trying to do) enacted to institute a permit program.

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[GWP]

I really enjoy a crawfish boil, but I am not sure I want any more ‘live’ invasive species of any kind brought in to the State. Frozen, Ok.
Just my take.

[Netminder01]

IMO you are wasting time trying to get the WAC changed. Not happening. You would have more chance in getting an exemption through Legislative action. Still a longshot.

Legislative action? Tell me more

He's saying contact your state legislator to propose a bill to have a law (not a rule/reg like you're currently trying to do) enacted to institute a permit program.

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gotcha, thanks!

[Netminder01]

I really enjoy a crawfish boil, but I am not sure I want any more ‘live’ invasive species of any kind brought in to the State. Frozen, Ok.
Just my take.

They are prone to escape. Not.

 

[Platensek-po]

I really enjoy a crawfish boil, but I am not sure I want any more ‘live’ invasive species of any kind brought in to the State. Frozen, Ok.
Just my take.

They are prone to escape. Not.

 

I mean it’s clearly happened before…

[Netminder01]

I really enjoy a crawfish boil, but I am not sure I want any more ‘live’ invasive species of any kind brought in to the State. Frozen, Ok.
Just my take.

They are prone to escape. Not.

 

I mean it’s clearly happened before…

The catalyst behind classifying the out-of-state crawfish as invasive was an eastside high school biology class that let a few crawfish go in a local stream after their class was finished with the dissecting portion, instead of disposing of them. Those few, kick the crap out of our local crayfish (so to speak). That was the reason explained to me by one of the DFW Invasive Species team members back when the change was made.

I had been doing my crawfish boils for nearly a decade so the sudden change was a head-scratcher. The lack of a permitting process today for consumption still is.

[Skillet]

My gut reaction was to think "No, we really don't need to introduce another unknown risk to our waterways just for someone who wants to live like a Cajun in the PNW."  It seemed like you were asking us to sign up for an unknown level of risk (which if this avenue is opened is not zero, let's be honest) for a vanity project.

But I have to admit, I'm coming around.  How would you suggest the permit process ensure that no crawfish find their way into Washington's waterways?  You must understand that if you are allowed to import crawfish, so is someone else whose actual goal is to set some free in the local creek/pond.

So in your eyes, what does that process look like?

And for what it's worth, I feel your pain. We used to bring in leeches from Wisconsin to fish for walleye.  I think it was 2009 or 2010 that got nipped in the bud due to the potential of VHS being imported. 

[KFhunter]

One dude isn’t going to get the time of day

You need a group, bigger the better, and you do outreach, education, and once your big and vocal enough speak with your representatives, dwf staff

Washington mud bug association

WMBA lol

[Netminder01]

My gut reaction was to think "No, we really don't need to introduce another unknown risk to our waterways just for someone who wants to live like a Cajun in the PNW."  It seemed like you were asking us to sign up for an unknown level of risk (which if this avenue is opened is not zero, let's be honest) for a vanity project.

But I have to admit, I'm coming around.  How would you suggest the permit process ensure that no crawfish find their way into Washington's waterways?  You must understand that if you are allowed to import crawfish, so is someone else whose actual goal is to set some free in the local creek/pond.

So in your eyes, what does that process look like?

And for what it's worth, I feel your pain. We used to bring in leeches from Wisconsin to fish for walleye.  I think it was 2009 or 2010 that got nipped in the bud due to the potential of VHS being imported.

Change occurs one conversation at a time! Welcome! 

Taking a hard look at Oregon's permitting process would be a great place to start. It's in place, from what I understand, effective, and fair. Beyond that, and just spitballin':

1) A reporting requirement like catch/harvest cards. I buy by the pound so I could report back to DFW how many were eaten, and how many were left over. I'd still be responsible for the safe consumption of leftovers but it would provide DFW with increased transparency.

2) Weighing spent shells would not be anywhere close to precise but possible.

3) I'd even welcome DFW to the boil. Hell, I'd even consider a 'give-back' loop to DFW where a small portion of the ticket price is donated to the invasive species DFW team. 

How do you like me now?

[jackelope]

The crawdad love runs deep here.

[KFhunter]

Well honestly I think the horse has left the barn long ago, so much of our waters are already invaded. 

I’d support not having any rules on crayfish other than illegal to dump live crawfish anywhere, native or not. 

[teanawayslayer]

Is there any reason why you couldn’t  get them boiled then shipped on dry ice?

[Skillet]

My gut reaction was to think "No, we really don't need to introduce another unknown risk to our waterways just for someone who wants to live like a Cajun in the PNW."  It seemed like you were asking us to sign up for an unknown level of risk (which if this avenue is opened is not zero, let's be honest) for a vanity project.

But I have to admit, I'm coming around.  How would you suggest the permit process ensure that no crawfish find their way into Washington's waterways?  You must understand that if you are allowed to import crawfish, so is someone else whose actual goal is to set some free in the local creek/pond.

So in your eyes, what does that process look like?

And for what it's worth, I feel your pain. We used to bring in leeches from Wisconsin to fish for walleye.  I think it was 2009 or 2010 that got nipped in the bud due to the potential of VHS being imported.

Change occurs one conversation at a time! Welcome! 

Taking a hard look at Oregon's permitting process would be a great place to start. It's in place, from what I understand, effective, and fair. Beyond that, and just spitballin':

1) A reporting requirement like catch/harvest cards. I buy by the pound so I could report back to DFW how many were eaten, and how many were left over. I'd still be responsible for the safe consumption of leftovers but it would provide DFW with increased transparency.

2) Weighing spent shells would not be anywhere close to precise but possible.

3) I'd even welcome DFW to the boil. Hell, I'd even consider a 'give-back' loop to DFW where a small portion of the ticket price is donated to the invasive species DFW team. 

How do you like me now?

Eh, I'm not convinced by this.  Nobody believes catch record cards. But if someone lied on their crab catch card it wouldn't alter the ecosystem of a local waterway.

We fought hard for the leeches, even going as far to agree we would only source from leech farms that had closed systems and would carry verification.  WDFW absolutely not interested in having that conversation.

I think your odds of success are extremely low here.

[KFhunter]

That’s being way generous Skillet


soo you’re saying there’s a chance?  Yes!!

[Moose Master]

Have you made an appointment with any directors in Olympia in person?  400 pounds mentioned would be an event different than personal use.  Good luck with your endeavors

[wags]

Your proposal is not going anywhere, and it shouldn't. We have too many invasive species already, and I can assure you, if people start importing these crayfish, some of the will eventually end up being released into the wild.

[Netminder01]

Your proposal is not going anywhere, and it shouldn't. We have too many invasive species already, and I can assure you, if people start importing these crayfish, some of the will eventually end up being released into the wild.

That's an odd take, are you on staff at DFW? Thanks for your comment tho

Responsible people (like yours truly) should not be held back by the irresponsibility of others on an item like this.

[Angry Perch]

We used to eat a lot of fresh, deep fried walleye fingerlings. Can you order me a gross or two while you're at it? You know, just for old times sake. 

[pickardjw]

I'm in south Alabama right now, just happened to go to a crawfish and shrimp boil the other day. For anyone that's never had a cajun crawfish boil, let's just say I can see why OP is willing to fight the government to have one This was plate 1 of 3

[Netminder01]

I'm in south Alabama right now, just happened to go to a crawfish and shrimp boil the other day. For anyone that's never had a cajun crawfish boil, let's just say I can see why OP is willing to fight the government to have one This was plate 1 of 3

 

[Gringo31]

Being born and raised in this state and marrying a Texan with a kid that graduated LSU, I've spent a little time in the south.  IMO they have a LOT of seafood but it's garbage compared to ours.

On the other matter, I believe and support that it's easier to have a blanket rule for no live invasive species than to make exceptions.  Go have your boil in Idaho, eat local or find another way.  It's your right to fight it all you want but I can't help but think.... "Of all the things to try and make a difference, this is it???"

[pickardjw]

Texas had garbage seafood or Louisiana?

I could get behind Texas seafood being mediocre...but Louisiana seafood is the gold standard.

[Gringo31]

I could get behind Texas seafood being mediocre...but Louisiana seafood is the gold standard.

I was all excited for all the different kinds of shrimp and crab.  I guess I've spent too much time in Alaska to compare gulf seafood.  King Crab, dungys and our prawns are unbeatable IMO. 

[pickardjw]

Yeah I think Pacific seafood shines on it's own whereas Gulf seafood shines when it's incorporated into dishes. Things like Shrimp/Crawfish Etouffee, gumbo, blackened redfish on the half shell, fried oyster/gator/shrimp po-boys, crab/crawfish au gratin, oysters rockefeller, etc.

But I'd rather have snow/dungeness by itself with butter than blue crab for sure.

[Special T]

I'm sorry but I just had to out you since I found your you tube channel!