FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WA GOAT HUNTERS - STOP SHOOTING NANNIES!!!

[Tbar]

How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?

I am all for harvesting billys only, but like others have said this is hunters getting the blame for something we are not causing. Based on studies from other states, my guess is lions are playing a major role here but they will never admit that

Colorado is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't see a lot of conservation parallels but it does make a case for assisted migration and conservation introduction. This is something that's not welcomed with open arms here,  actually quite the opposite where the feds eradicated non native goats from the op.

Can you elaborate on that a bit more? Seems to me like they're dealing with the same climate change, the same (if not more) recreational pressure in the high country, and about to be dealing with the same bans on predator and hound hunting that we already are. As far as I know they haven't been translocated since the 70's. Apples to oranges in what manner?

Completely different (and changing) environments. I wish we knew more about what drives goat population in the alpine climates and micro climates.  No data to back up the next statement but an acknowledgment in many discussions including around conservation introduction,  that climate change is not all bad. Quite the opposite in many cases where species become more viable in certain environments. 

[hunter399]

If this really is a problem,hunters caused this.
Shouldn't permit numbers been lowered .

We are kinda seeing the same here in NE With moose.
You hardly see moose any more,yet the first person blamed is hunters. Yet the predator/prey study shows moose as preferred for wolves. Permit numbers haven't been lowered.
Hunter's will pay the price in loss of opportunities at the end of the day.

[ipkus]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

[GOcougsHunter]

 

[LDennis24]

I got alot of grief over this on another thread about pack goats and bighorn sheep and diseases etc. But...  goats get respiratory and bacterial diseases just like sheep and that can infect the entire herd leading to huge die offs and poor lamb survival rates for years afterwards. People taking domestic sheep and goats into the forest that were not tested for M. ovi could be one of the leading causes of the herds declining and seemingly not expanding for several years afterwards.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/industry/agriculture-seafood/animals-and-crops/animal-production/sheep-and-goats/mycoplasma-ovipneumoniae

[shanevg]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure.  In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day.  The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail.  Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night.  It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid.  I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.

Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds. 
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.)  I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.

Again, I want to be very clear.  The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines.  But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future.  For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed.  But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt.  It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem.  It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.

[Threewolves]

From my point of view the Goat Rocks MT. Goat and Elk population declined after hunting cougars with hounds was terminated. You could not hunt cougars with hounds in a wilderness area anyway, but the wilderness areas are surrounded by areas that could be hunted.

Another thought, anyone have any idea how many MT goats the natives take? No idea? neither does WDFW or maybe they do and just have not responded to my request. I don't think the tribe collects the information or reports it to the state. I know some Nisqually's have taken a few only because they told me. Bolt decision says they can. 

[ghosthunter]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure.  In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day.  The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail.  Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night.  It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid.  I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.

Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds. 
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.)  I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.

Again, I want to be very clear.  The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines.  But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future.  For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed.  But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt.  It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem.  It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.

And thus you have touched on the problem for the entire state and declines herds of mule deer, elk, goats ect. Too many folks.

Encroachment into areas were only a few ventured, now hordes of folks on foot, bike, motors, and buildings. Any trail head along North Cascades is three times over full. With them comes wear and tear on the environment along with garbage and waste. And disruption of game herds.

The demand which once eased in fall or winter is now year round with snow machines, snowshoers and other winter users.

We are past the time where not only Nannie’s should be shot, but all female deer or elk should not be hunted until herds rebound. It is even more tedious with a Game Commission who loves predators.

[CarbonHunter]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

Poaching and tribal hunting is definitely having an impact on all trophy species. There is no accurate way to measure the harvest by these 2 factors but when the population surveys of the herds show a decrease in trophy animals while the population of yearlings and females stay within expectations you can guarantee it’s poaching and over hunting. I haven’t seen any published harvest reports to suggest that state sanctioned seasons have lead to over harvest.

The goat herds are suffering from several factors from what I have heard and I think it maybe an all of the above issue.

[storyteller]

Prior comment asked about over the counter goat tags and possibly 2, never in the 70's.    My wife used to go to Olympia to watch the tag draws and see who got what, game dept was talking about young billies being shot more often and the mature, older billies dying off from age.  In 1970, washington state had 3.4 million people, 2024 has over 8 million, yes, lots of people

[ipkus]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure.  In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day.  The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail.  Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night.  It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid.  I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.

Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds. 
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.)  I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.

Again, I want to be very clear.  The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines.  But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future.  For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed.  But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt.  It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem.  It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.

I’m not saying your specific example is wrong, or that it isn’t impacting the goat population there.  The drop is dramatic across the state, and all of the goat habitat isn’t getting hammered that hard.  Additionally, ONP has been heavily hiked for as long as I’ve been alive and that population was thriving even with all the hikers until the government did their usual and “fixed” it. 🙄

Something more is at play here…

[shanevg]

I really don’t think tribal hunters are an issue with goats.  From my experience the tribes are just as devoted as I am to the conservation of our herds. Frankly, I know from first hand experience that tribal representatives have been our biggest advocates for hunting privileges, mountain goat conservation, and battling the idiocy of our game commission.

[Tbar]

There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers.  It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.

And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies.  I mean;

Wolf? 
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand.  Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?

Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state.  Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?

Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?

Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?

I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.

Poaching and tribal hunting is definitely having an impact on all trophy species. There is no accurate way to measure the harvest by these 2 factors but when the population surveys of the herds show a decrease in trophy animals while the population of yearlings and females stay within expectations you can guarantee it’s poaching and over hunting. I haven’t seen any published harvest reports to suggest that state sanctioned seasons have lead to over harvest.

The goat herds are suffering from several factors from what I have heard and I think it maybe an all of the above issue.

I can speak to tribal hunting on baker and surrounding areas. It is reported,  and it is down significantly from historical highs. You will not get disagreement on predation. Cats are the most likely culprit but there has to be more.  If you think hiker pressure is not a driver I urge you to hike from artists point.  Over the weekend the bathroom lines more than a city block long.  There has been a dramatic post covid boom in rec users on all public lands it is really unimaginable unless you see it for yourself.  Central cascades are also not immune from the pressures.  This is a difficult topic but it's flat out wrong to shy away from the fact that the single variable hunters have control of is male harvest.  If people who are lucky enough to draw these tags do their due diligence they become ambassadors and advocates to perpetuate opportunities vs limiting factors.

[Slamadoo]

I can vouche on the number of people in the Avalanche Gorge unit. A couple years ago I went along with a friend who drew that tag. We went in at Artist Point one weekend. The number of people I encountered up there was insane. He ended up eating the tag because he couldn't get close enough to the 1 mature Billy he found that season. I'm sure there were others around, but the weather didn't cooperate. Tough hunting.

This summer I hiked up into the Goat Rocks for a few days and there were quite a few people up there too. We camped 1 night at Goat Lake and there were probably 15-20 people who slept in that basin that night.

It's funny how much blame hunters get from antis and even our own commission about decreasing herds of all sorts. But we are the only ones (and target shooters) putting any real money into the pot. All the "wildlife watchers" they sight aren't putting any money towards conservation. These REI hikers aren't either and as a group they are doing WAY more degradation to these areas than hunters.

I still think predators (likely cats) are playing a major role here. WDFW will never admit that.

[jackelope]

The easiest thing for hunters to control from a goat conservation standpoint is nanny harvest. I believe firmly that some of the most knowledgeable people in Washington state mtn goat banter are posting in this thread. It’s worth listening to and taking it to heart, especially if or when you draw a tag. There are lots of goats. You don’t have to shoot the first one you see.