Take this serious!

[luvtohnt]

First of all I don't mind if you call me Brandon, secondly I DO NOT love the wolves. I wish they weren't here as well but they are so I am trying to come up with some ideas that will allow us, the people to manage them, because they are going to be here for the rest of our lives. If wolfbait and Mountainman1 would put half as much energy into working with the wolf group as they do here on this site, they may be surprised at what could be accomplished. Indstead the two of you come on here and try to stir the pot and get people so aggravated that they just want to kill all the wolves. When people leave comments like that with the WDFW they are simply set aside as ignorant comments. My opinion of the wolves has come from reading a lot of the information that wolfbait has provided, but in order to form an educated opinion you must read from other sources as well. That id how I have come up with my ideas about wolves and hoe they should be managed.

Oh, for sure, you sure don't want to hear any truths, you would ruther run to mommy. Tell her what the bad old Wolfbait said about fitkins wolves. maybe you should take a little look at saveelk.com or are you like Wacoyotehunter and would rather hide under the covers?

I don't need to run to mommy I stand up and fight for what I believe in. There are far more important issues out there right now then wolves, and that is were most of my free time is spent. Saveelk.com is the most horrible site I have ever seen. You can find a lot of good info there but they run multiples of each picture taken from different angles to get people to think they are killing way more elk than they really are. I remain as active as possible on the wolf issue (when there aren't other issues that I feel I need to write letters about) but keep in mind I can't read everthing as I am a full time student and have homework as well.

Most of the wolf packs in the lower 48 have been having two to three litters of pups per pack, an I looked it up an its true. One other thing is the WDFW don't want people to know how many wolves there real is. How long can the WDFW keep claiming there are only two packs of wolves in the state of Washington?

I realize that I read wolfbaits article about that as well. I also read some scholarly journals that said this is not uncommon. But again what will it take to get you to realize that a pack becomes a pack when they have a successful litter alive until the end of December of the year they are born! So if a pack has a litter and all the pups die, they aren't considered a pack. If you don't like that classification then get with the wolf group and change it to count all the wolves. But I forgot it is easier to sit on a computer in a blog site and pretend like you are educated about wolves.

why do you think your buddies are suing to keep helicopters from collaring wolves in the wilderness?

They aren't my buddies, I do not like theses environmental terrorists. But Part of the Wilderness act state no motorized vehicles. I don't think that clause should be overturned in order to go collar some wolves. Have a ground crew that will come in and do the work when one is darted from the helicopter. It could be done. Or better yet let the ID game and fish control the population in the wilderness. But there is no need to be destroying the wilderness in order to collar a couple wolves.

I am done with this because I would hate to see wolfbait's thread be locked because then he would not be able to inform people of the "risk's of having wolves in Washington". I look foreward to the next bit of info provided to us by wolfbait.

Brandon

[WAcoyotehunter]

When people leave comments like that with the WDFW they are simply set aside as ignorant comments.

I agree completely.  Wild rants don't get us far either.

[mountainman1]

Well hello, guys, I am happy to see that we have opened some eyes to this wolf situation. All of this info that gets posted here is for you information! You have the right to say that we are repeating our selves but we are in reality giving you more info than you want read on these wolves. You guy need to do more research and learn more about wolf management, you can call me a left or right wing debater, but you guys just don't have the time to do enough research to fling *censored* at people

[wolfbait]

(First of all I don't mind if you call me Brandon, secondly I DO NOT love the wolves. I wish they weren't here as well but they are so I am trying to come up with some ideas that will allow us, the people to manage them, because they are going to be here for the rest of our lives. If wolfbait and Mountainman1 would put half as much energy into working with the wolf group as they do here on this site, they may be surprised at what could be accomplished. Indstead the two of you come on here and try to stir the pot and get people so aggravated that they just want to kill all the wolves. When people leave comments like that with the WDFW they are simply set aside as ignorant comments. My opinion of the wolves has come from reading a lot of the information that wolfbait has provided, but in order to form an educated opinion you must read from other sources as well. That id how I have come up with my ideas about wolves and hoe they should be managed.)

Bradon if you would look at the past wolf issues you would see that the environmentalists sue every time the wolves are delisted. The USFWS is mostly environmentalists, so the relist / delist is mostly just a big joke. The people would really like to have wolf management, thats what the problem is, No Management.

A selected group of ranchers and concerned citizens work with the WDFW wolf group for a long time, that is how the minority plan came about. WDFWS would not even consider the minority plan. So there you are. Didn't realize talking about the wolf issues was stirring the pot, I guess it could be though if certain people don't like to hear the truth. Mud slinging, you and wacoyotes are no slouch at it either, but you do like to take the high road when it gets bumped back in your lap. You crack me up.

Did you know that in 2002 the experimntal wolf introduction had reach their population goal? Yep, and where are we today with wolf management, zippo. Did you also know that in 1992 WDFWS already had a wolf recovery program started, and had six confirmed wolf packs in the Cascades and were suppose to be writing a wolf plan for Washington at that time? The USWFS were having wolf talks with WDFW on introducing the Canadian wolves because Washington already had a large peopulation of wolves and thought our wolf program would be a good example for the YNP introduction. When the YNP wolf introduction was implimented the money for Washington wolf progam went to Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, which put the skids on reseaching Washingtons wolves. The wolves didn't quit reproducing in Washington just because the money left. First wolf pack in 70 years is a bald face lie and they know this. I have yet to see any honesty from the USFWS or WDFW where the wolves are concerned. If this last little spurt that we have been debating about wolves is all you know about the wolf issue, then I would say you have a damn good chance of going straight to work for the USFWS or any of the pro wolf departments. They like people like you. I can shoot everything you have said right out the door, its hog wash, I have studied this wolf introduction for a very long time, I can put documented facts in front of you till hell freezes over. I would suggest if you want to have a debate you should spend some time studing so that you know what you are talking about. Wolfbait

[Shootmoore]

A couple of points.  here reference the Washington State wolf "management" plan.  I have read the plan, it is Not a management plan, it is a wolf propagation plan.  The wolf team was stacked with pro-wolf propagation persons and the wolf management division is controlled by the Defenders of Wildlife, an anti-hunting organization.  If you do not believe this, go to the links section of the WDFW Wolf management section and see what the ONLY nongovernmental website link is.

6 of the wolf management team, did not agree with the majority of the wolf management working group, developed IMHO a reasonable option to put in front of the commission for consideration, this option was ignored and not provided to the commission.  Therefore the only options provided to the commission is the propagation option.

Whether early or late, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming did put a wolf management plan in place once the Initial wolf population goal was met, and I think we can all agree that the current number of wolves far outnumber the initial target goals.  However the Defenders of Wildlife etal have and continue to sue to block attempts by those states to manage the wolves.  They keep expanding the target numbers they want to have.

WDFW is blindly (or not) aligning themselves with the same organizations that WILL be suing them in court once any attempt at the hunting of wolves is implemented IF it is implemented.  One must learn from the past or be doomed to repeat past mistakes.  The wolf propagation plans now before the commission allows for the overpopulation of wolves in parts of the state if the wolves do not spread to the entire state as listed in all 3 of there plans.

In closing management and propagation are two different animals.  The propagation of one species over all others to include humans is not only elitist, but a bit scary in my opinion.

Shootmoore

[Lowedog]

You just stood there screaming
Fearing no one was listening to you
They say the empty can rattles the most
The sound of your own voice must soothe you
Hearing only what you want to hear
And knowing only what you've heard
You, you're smothered in tragedy
And you're out to save the world

[luvtohnt]

Did you know that in 2002 the experimntal wolf introduction had reach their population goal? Yep, and where are we today with wolf management, zippo. Did you also know that in 1992 WDFWS already had a wolf recovery program started, and had six confirmed wolf packs in the Cascades and were suppose to be writing a wolf plan for Washington at that time? The USWFS were having wolf talks with WDFW on introducing the Canadian wolves because Washington already had a large peopulation of wolves and thought our wolf program would be a good example for the YNP introduction. When the YNP wolf introduction was implimented the money for Washington wolf progam went to Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, which put the skids on reseaching Washingtons wolves. The wolves didn't quit reproducing in Washington just because the money left.

Do you have documentation I can look at for this info?

it is Not a management plan, it is a wolf propagation plan

It would be if the initial numbers weren't so high. The only reason I can think they want the numbers so high is to avoid the lawsuits from the pro wolf side.

I guess it could be though if certain people don't like to hear the truth

Only when the truth is being stretched!

However the Defenders of Wildlife etal have and continue to sue to block attempts by those states to manage the wolves.

As soon as the judge in Montana makes his decision the lawsuit could be over for good, that will set a precident that when the wolves are delisted they are in the hands of the state.

Brandon

[luvtohnt]

Well hello, guys, I am happy to see that we have opened some eyes to this wolf situation. All of this info that gets posted here is for you information! You have the right to say that we are repeating our selves but we are in reality giving you more info than you want read on these wolves. You guy need to do more research and learn more about wolf management, you can call me a left or right wing debater, but you guys just don't have the time to do enough research to fling *censored* at people

I don't like to fling *censored*, I would much prefer an educated discussion. Which reminds me neither one of you have chimed in on your experience with wolf or wildlife management!! Come on I know you got an answer for me.

Brandon

[luvtohnt]

Just found a interesting little tid bit of information. I would provide a link but it is from a scholarly journal site and you can't get access unless you pay for it. The board won't allow me to post because it is too large. If you are interested in reading it pm me with your email address and I will send it to you.

Accordingly, Judge Downes ordered that the defendants "must remove reintroduced non-native wolves and their offspring from the Yellowstone and central Idaho experimental population areas."(n184) Thejudge later stayed execution of his order pending appeal.(n185)

 While both courts deferred to FWS's definition of "population" as being "2 breeding pairs ... raising at least 2 young each ... for 2 consecutive years," the courts applied that definition differently.(n221)

We should be glad they loosened the definition of a population!!

Brandon

[Special T]

Lowdog and Luvtohunt from your statements I can only assume that you believe wolfbait wears the tin foil hat of a conspiracy nut. Am I wrong? Wolf bait has provided more 3rd party documentation than anyone else on this subject. Others have contributed on the Anit wolf introduction side as well. So far i have seen little to NO 3rd party information that supports the reintroduction plan. You say wolfbait is the chicken little saying the sky is falling yet agree that your not happy with the wolf "management " plan.. I'm confused... I get the feeling that you 2 think we should just let this management plan run its course and work itself out.. Am I wrong? If so How?
   Lovetohunt Quote"If wolfbait and Mountainman1 would put half as much energy into working with the wolf group as they do here on this site, they may be surprised at what could be accomplished. Indstead the two of you come on here and try to stir the pot and get people so aggravated that they just want to kill all the wolves. When people leave comments like that with the WDFW they are simply set aside as ignorant comments. My opinion of the wolves has come from reading a lot of the information that wolfbait has provided, but in order to form an educated opinion you must read from other sources as well."
You pose 2 comments in this quote that puzzle me? First is the assertion that by working with the wolf group they could make a difference. I am unfamiliar with your background, however anyone who has worked with ANY government agency knows that many working or exploratory groups are formed with the conclusion in mind. For example the 3 options for wolf de-enlistment all had 15 packs of wolves, just different ways of getting there.... The second is since you adamantly disagree with wolfbait please share your contradictory studies and data? I don't accept answers to arguments such as " a basic Google search turns up so much contradictory information I don't have time to post it"   We all love to banter that's why we are posting in the first place.... If you or anyone else is compelled enough to call out wolfbait persuade us... use facts, Sell ME!
   Apparently your (lowdog & luvtohunt) dislike for wolfbait has clouded your message. All i get from your rants is that wolfbait is a conspiracy theory nut?  Please clarify?

[luvtohnt]

I in no way am accusing him of being a conspiracy nut, and he brings up a lot of good issues. However the issues he brings up are so exaggerated it is not funny. The Alveolar echinococcosis he brought up in this thread is something that has been around. It is found in dogs, cats, horses, pigs, almost every domestic animal has this genus of worms in them. But it doesn't very readily infect humans. The way he stated to watch out for this he acted like it was something new and scary. I don't mind that we have wolves in fact i believe IF DONE PROPERLY (which is a problem with our current WDFW) wolves will in fact enhance the ecosystems in Washington. I have never once said I agreed with the current plan that is being finalized, in fact I wrote numerous letters to try to get the minority opinion recognized. All I do by coming on here is express how I think that the information presented is extremely biased and uses scare tactics to get people behind the anti wolf movement. The feds suck at this game too, and I wish there was a way to stop them and leave issues like this to individual states. But for now we got wolves, so we have to organize as a group regardless of weather want the wolves or not and make sure that management is the only option at this point. In fact if I lived closer I would be willing to sit down with wolfbait or anyone for that matter and discuss this issue in depth. Give me a few minutes and I will find some good scientific data on Alveolar echinococcosis.

Attatched is a pdf file with great information about the disease and how it is not nearly as bad as wolfbait claims.

Brandon

[Special T]

Thank you for clarifying your position. The abstract of the PFD file you attached rebuffed your earlier comment that this disease does not readily  infect humans. quote from the abstract "New sensitive
and specific diagnostic methods and effective therapeutic approaches against echinococcosis have been developed in the last 10years. Despite some progress in the control of echinococcosis, this zoonosis continues to be a major public health problem in several countries and in several others; it constitutes an emerging and re-emerging disease." 

In the  Laboratory findings and diagnosis section "Alveolar echinococcosis typically becomes symptomaticin persons of advanced age; it closely mimics hepatic carcinoma or cirrhosis."

In the Prevention section "Eliminating E. multilocularis from its wild animal hosts is impractical; therefore, contact with dogs and foxes in areas where the infection is endemic should be avoided. Preventing infection in humans depends on education to improve hygiene and sanitation [35]. Infection in dogs and cats prone to eat infected rodents can be prevented by monthly treatments with praziquantel[35]."
 I have no technical medical training, but this seems to tell me that the young and old are most susceptible to the disease and that our best hope for prevention is less  contact with our pets and monthly special "worming" treatments to keep expose down.  I guess i might not worry so much if i could just take a simple worming pill to kill off the parasite. I don't think surgery or a form of chemotherapy interest me. You will have to forgive the Poker term but "I don't think the Juice is worth the Squeeze!"

[Lowedog]

Lowdog and Luvtohunt from your statements I can only assume that you believe wolfbait wears the tin foil hat of a conspiracy nut. Am I wrong?

100% right from my point of view.  Just to clarify though, I never tried to discuss any type of management plan other than to say that eradication is no form of management.  Go back and read my posts again. 

If all old wolfbait did was post 3rd party info he would be taken a lot more seriously.   

[Little Dave]

The proposal in the wolf plan is aggressive and sets up the state to experience a dramatic shock to the population balances... very much like a young and ineperienced driver so anxious to get there not enough thought given to jerky use of the brake, safety concerns along the way, or ramifications of a poorly executed hasty maneuver.

The incidence of this tapeworm disease is historically low in this region, mainly for the same reason that incidence of diseases spread from woolly mammoth the last few decades has been low.  There hasn't been enough wolves here to measure the effect of wolves spreading the parasite.  Today though, the parasite loads in the wolves in not too far away Idaho are abnormally high.  It's worth a look.

For me, I say this disease looks expensive to manage.  Surgery, chemotherapy, follow up treatments... what's that going to cost me if my kid gets it?  Maybe $50 to $100K?  It's worth at least as much time to research as was those diseases that might be communicated to wolves from pets and the additional thought that was given about creating public awareness programs for dog owners to help keep the wolves healthy.  Too bad that after two years of debating the wolves that we can't form a comprehensive plan which even mentions the apparently common disease causing tapeworm carried by wolves.  It's like a panel of respected biologists sat in on these discussions for two years and the lot of them just forgot the common disease the whole while.  Imagine what else they might have forgot.

[hunt4]

IF DONE PROPERLY (which is a problem with our current WDFW) wolves will in fact enhance the ecosystems in Washington.

How so?  Enhance?  Sorry I can not wrap my head around this please tell me more.  What can the wolves do that Man, bears, coyotes, cougars, birds of prey are not doing already?