Take this serious!

[Lowedog]

While I am not pro wolf nor anti wolf I prefer to form my own opinion on all matters.  I don't like scare tactics and IMO this is exactly that. 

[Shootmoore]

A couple of points to make.  Cat scans are the best and most reliable tool for discovery of cysts in the human body without exploratory surgery.  Blood tests for antibodies can also be used, however there is a 50% negative result of people who have cysts. 

The last recorded wolf kill in Washington State was in 197? leaving me to believe that well prior to that date the wolf population was extremely low well prior to that.  The CAT scan was developed and patend in 1975.  A strong case for the reason that no "documented cases of the disease have been found in the lower 48. 

With our current population per square mile today which is much higher than current pre-1970's and much higher than Canada and Alaska, I would have to say the likelyhood of human infestation is much greater today than it was pre wolf removal.  As can be seen even in Idaho and Montana with the reduced per square mile of human occupation that the wolves are following the herd animals into populated area's, making kills and if infected spreading the disease where people, children and domesticated dogs roam.

I believe it will be a matter of 1 to 2 years before the first confirmed case is found in humans.  Especially with the cavalier outlook being taken by some.  Using the theology that it hasn't happened here yet, when the main carrier has been out of the ecosystem since the most effective medical ability to detect the disease was invented is once again a case of "selective science" at work.  The confirmation may take even longer, as even though it is 2010 CAT scans are expensive and not all hospitals have them.  Also with the lack of information being provided I imagine that many doctors will misdiagnose the issue.


I don't want wolves here, however I am not using this as a scare tactic, but what does disturb me is that the pro-wolf people seem to poo-poo it or selectively ignore the issue.  Once again placing the wolf over people.

Shootmoore

[Little Dave]

This is a little bit different than a scare tactic.  It is a late forthcoming of the truth.  The wolf group used several years to produce a plan which in the end is a best compromise between an irrational desire for wolves from enthusiasts and property owners concerned about economic loss with minor concessions to other wildlife, management, the financial sustainability of the proposal.

Surely if the Hydatid disease causing tapeworm is widely broadcast and commonly known, it would figure as least as prominent as diseases carried by prey species if the plan were the result of a thorough study.  The closest approach to discussing the tapeworm in the document is worded this way on a "To Do list":

Evaluate potential for transmission of disease from wolves

In fact, the document goes so far to recommend that pet-owners be educated about the risk to wolf populations spreading disease from domestic dogs to wolves.  There is no use of the word "tapeworm" in the wolf plan, and there is one use of the word "parasite" in the context of domestic sheep passing parasites to wild sheep.  Nearly all discussion of disease is about diseases which might reduce wolf populations, or diseased prey that wolves eat.  The document is by no means the result of a thorough unbiased study.

[Sporting_Man]

Just got something on my mind:
Did Idaho and Montana authorities notify hunters who brought infected wolf carcasses for mandatory examination - that their wolves were infected..? There was a plenty of chance for those hunters to ingest eggs (from wolf hair, paws, etc.)... since they were not aware of the parasite at the time...

[Lowedog]

Just got something on my mind:
Did Idaho and Montana authorities notify hunters who brought infected wolf carcasses for mandatory examination - that their wolves were infected..? There was a plenty of chance for those hunters to ingest eggs (from wolf hair, paws, etc.)... since they were not aware of the parasite at the time...

A person should take precautions when handling pretty much any wild animal especially predators. 

A couple of points to make.  Cat scans are the best and most reliable tool for discovery of cysts in the human body without exploratory surgery.  Blood tests for antibodies can also be used, however there is a 50% negative result of people who have cysts. 

The last recorded wolf kill in Washington State was in 197? leaving me to believe that well prior to that date the wolf population was extremely low well prior to that.  The CAT scan was developed and patend in 1975.  A strong case for the reason that no "documented cases of the disease have been found in the lower 48. 

With our current population per square mile today which is much higher than current pre-1970's and much higher than Canada and Alaska, I would have to say the likelyhood of human infestation is much greater today than it was pre wolf removal.  As can be seen even in Idaho and Montana with the reduced per square mile of human occupation that the wolves are following the herd animals into populated area's, making kills and if infected spreading the disease where people, children and domesticated dogs roam.

I believe it will be a matter of 1 to 2 years before the first confirmed case is found in humans.  Especially with the cavalier outlook being taken by some.  Using the theology that it hasn't happened here yet, when the main carrier has been out of the ecosystem since the most effective medical ability to detect the disease was invented is once again a case of "selective science" at work.  The confirmation may take even longer, as even though it is 2010 CAT scans are expensive and not all hospitals have them.  Also with the lack of information being provided I imagine that many doctors will misdiagnose the issue.


I don't want wolves here, however I am not using this as a scare tactic, but what does disturb me is that the pro-wolf people seem to poo-poo it or selectively ignore the issue.  Once again placing the wolf over people.

Shootmoore

If you haven't looked anywhere besides in anti wolf or pro wolf agendas for info on Hydatid Disease then you should.  I don't know where you read that there are no reported cases in humans because I found reports from years and years ago talking about humans being infected.  There was one from 1970 done in California that they studied it in coyotes.  There are others that studied it in domestic sheep where it was transferred from the sheep to dogs and to humans. 

[wolfbait]

A Warning To Outdoor Users About Echinococcus, From Worms
December 10, 2009

 

This is a warning to outdoor users about a potentially deadly biological event that could result from one’s curiosity to poke at and kick through scat from wolves, coyotes and foxes. Of course not everyone knowingly does this but many hunters, trappers and simply the curious, want to know what these animals have been eating.

Back in the end of November I gave you a link to a story, “Of Wolves and Worms”. That story introduced many of us to the subject of worms being found in wolves in the Greater Yellowstonearea.

According to a new study out in the October issue of the Journal of Wildlife Diseases, three-millimeter-long tapeworms known as Echinococcus granulosus, are documented for the first time in gray wolves in Idaho and Montana. And the authors didn’t just find a few tapeworms here and there… turns out that of 123 wolf intestines sampled, 62 percent of the Idaho gray wolves and 63 percent of the Montana gray wolves were positive. (Ew!) The researchers wrote: “The detection of thousands of tapeworms per wolf was a common finding.” (Again… Ew!!) This leads to the interpretation that the E. granulosus parasite rate is fairly widespread and established in the Northern Rocky Mountain wolves.

There is discussion about how some think the worms ended up in the wolves in this region but the article tends to downplay any serious concerns people should have from coming in contact with these tapeworms and the eggs they leave behind.

In the comments section of the article, Will Graves, author of the book “Wolves in Russia: Anxiety Through the Ages“, left his thoughts on his own research discoveries about the dangers to humans of these parasites.

In the first paragraph in my letter to Mr. Bangs dated 3 October 1993 on the DEIS (Draft Environmental Impact Statement) which was titled “The Reintroduction of Gray Wolves to Yellowstone National Park and Central Idaho,” I warned about the damages and problems wolves would cause to Yellowstone and other areas by carrying and spreading parasites and diseases over larger areas. Some of these parasites are damaging not only to wild and domestic animals, but can also be dangerous to humans. One of these parasites is Echinococcous Granulosus and Echinococcus M. Since 1993 I have been working to tell people what I have learned from about 50 years of research on the characteristics, habits and behavior of Russian wolves. From that research I came to the conclusion that one of the most serious consequences of bring wolves into the US would be the wolves carrying and spreading around damaging/dangerous parasites and diseases. I did my best to explain this in my book titled, “Wolves in Russia – Anxiety Through the Ages” edited by Dr. Valerius Geist. Details about my book are in my web site: wolvesinrussia.com.

After several years effort, I finally recently obtained help from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Parasitic Research Center in Beltsville, MD. This research center will try to conduct research on the blood taken from wolves in our western states. One parasite they will be researching is to determine if wolves carry and spread the parasite Neospora Caninum around. It is established that coyotes and dogs carry this damaging parasite.

I remember that about two years ago there was a report about one wolf carrying Echinococcus Granulosus in Montana.

Much more research is needed about the danger wolves bring to our environment. Some of the parasites carried by wolves are dangerous to humans.(emphasis added)

Around this same time that Will Graves posted his comments, he contacted me by email and asked if I could somehow be of assistance to him in obtaining blood samples from wolves taken during the Idaho and Montana wolf hunts. The word went out quickly and hopefully Graves gets what he needs to help him in his research. This can become extremely valuable information for all of us.

In the meantime, Dr. Valerius Geist, professor emeritus University of Calgary and Dr. Charles Kay, of Utah State University, who holds degrees in wildlife ecology, environmental studies and wildlife biology, exchanged thoughts on the discovery of worms in Yellowstone wolves in emails I received.

Well, Charles? What else is new? What did we warn about, how we were censored as alarmists………………………
And yes, a colleague assured us that all that is not a problem for us, but for some native types. Nothing to worry about, really. Remember how, early on, we put out a warning – do not kick dry wolf feces or poke about in such looking for evidence of food habits. Do not handle wolf feces as it will disturb the tiny Echinococcus eggs that float up like little dust cloud to envelop you, and you are very likely to ingest some of that “dust”. This know-how, which we older Canadian types carried away from our parasitogy lessons was poo-hood by some American colleagues. Wolves are after all, harmless! Remember the question we posed: is it really such a great idea completing ecosystems when the progression is herbivores, carnivores, finally diseases and parasites?

It is not my intention nor that of Drs. Geist and Kay to attempt to instill unnecessary fear in people but to educate, as it was back in the day before wolf reintroduction. There are very important lessons and warnings that all should heed and take into consideration when in the woods or maybe even in your own back yard.

Dr. Geist emailed me the other day and asked me if I would be kind enough to post this information so that anyone and everyone will be aware of the potential for some very serious health issues.

Urgent: could you make a point of it that now, that we know that the majority of wolves are infected with Echinococcus, that all hunters control their curiosity and not poke about in wolf or coyote feces to find out what these predators ate. these feces are saturated with tiny, lightweight Echinococcus eggs that rise like dust plume from the disturbed feces and envelop the poking hunter. If the air-born eggs are ingested, the an infection is possible, and having Echinococcus cysts grow inside oneself is not a desirable condition. Trust me!

He followed that up with more information about the dangers.

As to the pathogenicity of Echinococcus granulosus: Yes, I noticed that Foayt, leaning on Raup’s research in Alaska, toned down the dangers from this northern form. My understanding based on what we learned from an old, experienced parasitologist at the University of British Columbia is that it’s nothing to fool around with. It’s serious! In my career as a biologist in touch with the north, I have heard nothing else. I have not, however, done a recent literature search. Foayte’s assessment may be on even though it conflicts with mine. Either way, getting an Echinococcus cyst of any kind is no laughing matter as it can grow not only on the liver or the lungs, but also in the brain. And then it’s fatal.

There is however, another much more alarming angle. Echinococcus multilocularis is a nightmare, and much more virulent than Echinococcus granulosus of any strain. We cannot encapsulate this cyst, and it grows and buds off like a cancer infecting different parts of the body incessantly. Were some of the wolves infected with multilocularis? Coyotes and foxes carry it and it has been spreading. Do canids in Idaho, Montana, etc. have it? It’s found in Alberta. Regardless, now is the time to send out an SOS to ALL outdoor users. Hold your curiosity in check, do not poke into the feces of wolves, coyotes and foxes. If you do you will release clouds of Echinococcus eggs which will envelop you, and you may ingest the eggs, bring the eggs home and endanger your family. This is nothing new to me and I have lived with this constraint on my curiosity for over 40 years. This is just a know how that maintains your personal and your family’s safety. Also, never feed uncooked offal to your dog as it may become infected with Echinococcus and infect you and your family. Echinococcus cysts love to be in lung and liver, and if consumed by dogs you have a health hazard on your hands. And such cysts now grow in deer and elk where you live. Somebody should take a second look searching out Echinococcus multilocularis.

You and I probably have no idea in the world whether these worms exist in the woods we hunt, trap, hike, etc. but good advice given by Dr. Geist should tell us it’s not something we should mess around with. Squelch the curiosity to dig in the poop and just assume there could be hidden danger.

I want to take a moment to thank Will Graves, Dr. Val Geist and Dr. Charles Kay for caring enough about the rest of us to be willing to share their findings and experiences.

Tom Remington

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2009/12/10/a-warning-to-outdoor-users-about-echinococcus-from-worms/

Lowedog, post links to where you are getting your information.

[Lowedog]

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNH_enUS324US324&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=hydatid+disease

Take your pick.  Just try to look for info that is not coming from an agenda. 

[wolfbait]

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNH_enUS324US324&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=hydatid+disease

Take your pick.  Just try to look for info that is not coming from an agenda.  

What are you trying to say? Because folks are concerned about the diseases that these wolves have and will be spreading that they have to have an agenda. The folks pushing the wolves have the agendas, most folks just want some wolf management.

[Lowedog]

I am saying if you look past the agenda on either side you will see the truth...there is a difference between management and eradication. 

[wolfbait]

I am saying if you look past the agenda on either side you will see the truth...there is a difference between management and eradication.  

Where has there been any management? Years ago it was the government that put the wolves out of business in this country. If you are calling the few wolves that were shot during the Montana and Idaho wolf hunts management, then you have plenty to learn where the wolves are concerned. Wolves in the lower 48 are doubling in size each year. 300 wolves out of say 3000 low count is not management. I Like your honesty in the fact that you are not really interested in the wolves and the diseases that they are spreading. If we could only find more people like you that weren't really interested, we could debate this till next spring. The answers would still be the same, the wolves are and will continue to spread disease throughout the lower 48. It's a proven fact in several other countries of wolves spreading diseases who have dealt with wolves far longer than the lower 48. I really don't see folks questioning whether wolves should be here or not when they are in the hospital having surgery for a parasite, a wolf that was brought into this country illegally. I think their main concern will be how to pay the doctor bill or if they are ever going to be healthy again. I really don't see the agenda there. Do you suppose that the other countries are all wet and their documentation is all BS?  Do you think wolf experts are lying to everyone? Or should we believe Ed Bangs who hasn't been honest from the start of the wolf introduction.

[Lowedog]

See, there you are refusing to see past your own agenda. Yes, wolves have this parasite, so do coyotes, foxes and domesticated dogs to name a few.  It was in the lower 48 before wolves were brought back. 

I refuse to be like you and be afraid of wolves and think of them as disease spreading demons that will ruin my life. 

As for management...I would call what has happened in Idaho and Montana a start.  You gotta start somewhere.

[wolfbait]

See, there you are refusing to see past your own agenda. Yes, wolves have this parasite, so do coyotes, foxes and domesticated dogs to name a few.  It was in the lower 48 before wolves were brought back.  

I refuse to be like you and be afraid of wolves and think of them as disease spreading demons that will ruin my life.  

As for management...I would call what has happened in Idaho and Montana a start.  You gotta start somewhere.

Any agendas are a joke at this point, I think public health will bring management to the wolves. You say you refuse to be like me, you don't even know me sonny. I decided some time ago any wolves that get within 75 yards of me are going to be full of holes. I am very concerned about the diseases that the wolves are spreading and so should other folks. You want to down play this, thats fine, I am happy you won't be one of the people deciding on real management. You say that the wolf hunts in Montana and Idaho is a start in wolf management, if you knew anything at all about wolves you wouldn't have said that. Just as a start for management at least 30% of the wolf count should have been hunted. The tiny 295 wolves on the chopping block had nothing to do with management, it was just another carrot. I can send you some good wolf reading if you would like to start learning.

[Sporting_Man]

From all the written, said, and published on this topic, I see that wolves might tip the scale and spread the nasty parasite.
Lowedog, that is one thing that you don't want to admit - wolves follow deer and elk, they move quickly and cover a lot of terrain. No other beast (that has ecchinococous potential) can move to such long distances, nor it had in last 70 years or so... Wolves are an ADDITION to all other canines and felines that existed here and carried the disease. So, we have an additional opportunity to get in trouble.
American experience on this matter is outdated and observes areas with low human population. That is incomplete data. What about now and here..? Ignoring other countries experience and their scientists is ridiculous. 

[Lowedog]

See, there you are refusing to see past your own agenda. Yes, wolves have this parasite, so do coyotes, foxes and domesticated dogs to name a few.  It was in the lower 48 before wolves were brought back. 

I refuse to be like you and be afraid of wolves and think of them as disease spreading demons that will ruin my life. 

As for management...I would call what has happened in Idaho and Montana a start.  You gotta start somewhere.

Any agendas are a joke at this point, I think public health will bring management to the wolves. You say you refuse to be like me, you don't even know me sonny. I decided some time ago any wolves that get within 75 yards of me are going to be full of holes. I am very concerned about the diseases that the wolves are spreading and so should other folks. You want to down play this, thats fine, I am happy you won't be one of the people deciding on real management. You say that the wolf hunts in Montana and Idaho is a start in wolf management, if you knew anything at all about wolves you wouldn't have said that. Just as a start for management at least 30% of the wolf count should have been hunted. The tiny 295 wolves on the chopping block had nothing to do with management, it was just another carrot. I can send you some good wolf reading if you would like to start learning.

Wolfbait, it is very hard to take anyone serious who's 99% of the time crying wolf, especially when you say things  about shooting wolves.

sporting_man, it is good info to have and I think anyone who is in wolf country should be aware of this but I don't think it will become an epidemic.  That is my opinion and I am not trying to convince you otherwise.  You believe what you want and I will do the same.   

[wolfbait]

See, there you are refusing to see past your own agenda. Yes, wolves have this parasite, so do coyotes, foxes and domesticated dogs to name a few.  It was in the lower 48 before wolves were brought back.  

I refuse to be like you and be afraid of wolves and think of them as disease spreading demons that will ruin my life.  

As for management...I would call what has happened in Idaho and Montana a start.  You gotta start somewhere.

Any agendas are a joke at this point, I think public health will bring management to the wolves. You say you refuse to be like me, you don't even know me sonny. I decided some time ago any wolves that get within 75 yards of me are going to be full of holes. I am very concerned about the diseases that the wolves are spreading and so should other folks. You want to down play this, thats fine, I am happy you won't be one of the people deciding on real management. You say that the wolf hunts in Montana and Idaho is a start in wolf management, if you knew anything at all about wolves you wouldn't have said that. Just as a start for management at least 30% of the wolf count should have been hunted. The tiny 295 wolves on the chopping block had nothing to do with management, it was just another carrot. I can send you some good wolf reading if you would like to start learning.

Wolfbait, it is very hard to take anyone serious who's 99% of the time crying wolf, especially when you say things  about shooting wolves.

sporting_man, it is good info to have and I think anyone who is in wolf country should be aware of this but I don't think it will become an epidemic.  That is my opinion and I am not trying to convince you otherwise.  You believe what you want and I will do the same.    

I have done a bit of research on the wolf introduction and have shared much with many, is that called crying wolf now? When it comes to wolves headed in my direction at 75 yards they will be shot and killed, I don't believe in letting the wolf/wolves get close enough to bite me in order to prove it was an attack, I don't think you would either. Everything that the wolf experts said would happen if the wolves were not managed is happening. I think in the near future you may change your feelings about the warm cuddly wolves.