White-tailed deer hunt proposals to be reviewed in August meetings

[TeacherMan]

Right idea, wrong GMU's

Move it to 101 & 204!

totally agree!!! 

[Sneaky]

Why have point restrictions on whitetails anywhere? especially 101 and 204, the whitetails there are major competition for the mule deer. Being that they reproduce twice as efficiently and are already numerous in 101 and 204 (again, based on my personal experience) I don't see a reason to scale back hunting on whitetails there, or anywhere in this state.


If you have a problem with populations being too low, scale back the doe hunting. If you have a problem with the buck to doe ratio and trophy quality in a herd, up the doe hunting to correct the ratio and provide  more subsistence winter and spring forage to foster healthy animal growth. Point restrictions do little but create genetic problems down the line and frustrate hunters. Look at the giant 2 point mule deer in the okanogan if you need proof of that. Point restrictions also lead to irresponsible people shooting before they count points and leaving deer to lay and waste. Bad idea for whitetails.

[huntnnw]

but whitetails dont get the muley 2 pt issue, its 4 pt and most people are willing to shoot a 5 yr old 4pt

[Shootmoore]

Lets all be honest here.  The main concern is that a whitetail buck over 2 years of age will be smarter than I am, forcing me to harvest deer by dumb luck only  .

Other than my little joke I have no real info on this as it has been several years since I used to stomp around the NE corner of the state.  I might call my great uncle and ask him if those "blankity blank deer" are still eating his alfalfa.   

Shootmoore

[Sneaky]

huntnnw - How do you know whitetails wouldn't have such issues? A few years ago, my dad shot a spike WT during the late buck hunt in GMU 117. The spikes were around 8-10" tall. The deer was aged at 3 1/2 years old. These are not the type of deer you need breeding does and passing on their inferior antler genes. Antler restrictions only foster this type of breeding, which from a management perspective is undesirable. I agree that a repeat of the mule deer situation is less likely due to the fact that the gene pool is much larger in whitetails, but the fact remains that placing these limitations on hunters hinders any kind of trophy management objective and does little for populations.

A few seasons ago I shot a 5x5 whitetail that was probably 4-6 years old or so. It was 19 1/2" wide and scored in the high 120's. When I shot it, I could only actually see two points. It was enough for me to know it was a buck. I would have had to let that deer walk with a 4 point restriction in place. A lot of people would have assumed it to be a nice deer and shot it without knowing how many points it had.

Shootmoore - Whitetails older than two years old may be smarter than me and have outsmarted me hundreds of times , but that is part of what I enjoy in hunting them, and for that reason, I have a vested interest in the way they are managed. Point restrictions for NE whitetails are not a good idea.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I attended the meetings representing QDMA and PO county sportsman's club.  The group was developed because there is a marked decrease in WT deer populations due to difficult winters, predation, hunting, cars... The group discussed different options for management and decided by vote, that a point restriction was the best way to help the herd.

The prevailing science suggests that mature bucks are more effective breeders and that having a more robust mature buck population will lead to better coverage of does on the first estrous, which increases fawn survival the following year.  Doe hunts will also be addressed, but not until the herd #'s have rebounded some.  There will be more surveys conducted to determine the population and help guide future management. 
 
IMO- this proposal will help the herd and will lead to better hunting in the future.  Give it a couple years and I think we'll all agree that it was the proper course of action. 

Trophy management was never mentioned.  If bigger antlers are a by-product, all the better.

[bobcat]

The prevailing science suggests that mature bucks are more effective breeders and that having a more robust mature buck population will lead to better coverage of does on the first estrous, which increases fawn survival the following year.

How will allowing hunters to only kill 4 point bucks create a "more robust mature buck population?" I don't get it.     If you want to protect the mature bucks shouldn't the harvest be limited to only bucks that have less than 4 points? (kinda like they do now with the spike only elk hunting)

[WAcoyotehunter]

It will increase escapement of young bucks and allow them to become old bucks...at least older bucks.   Young deer are easier to hunt than old deer, so if we give the young deer a break it will help them mature, and reproduce.

[bobcat]

I guess I could see that being true. Especially with the heavy cover they've got to hide in. It will be interesting to see what the WDFW thinks about it.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The possibility of younger bucks doing the breeding exists, but with more mature bucks around it seems likely that they'll be the ones reproducing. 

There are other options for increasing the herd.  Predator control, habitat enhancement, supplemental feeding...this is just one way that we can try to make a difference.

I am excited to see what kind of results we might get with a point restriction. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

There have been some states in the East that have had success with a point restriction.   Some research (enclosure animals) showed little evidence of success.  There was lots of discussion about predation, but really no other "directly" related deer regulations.  If you're interested in seeing the exhaustive research sources provided to us I can email them to you.  the WDFW was sort of luke warm about a restriction, probably because of the fear of revenue loss.  With a couple exceptions, the group largely supported the idea.

[Hangfire]

The September issue of Outdoor Life looks at the issue of managing whitetail for large bucks. A lot a negative results from this type of management.

I have talked to a number of land owners in the two units mentioned plus other hunters I know. Not one is in favor of the four point restriction.

I have not heard of any health or genetic benefit yet. It will definitely lower the total buck kill, even after implemented and the population stabilized.

A friend said: There is more to hunting than shooting a large buck, "I like to hunt with the grandkids".  How many grandkids will stay with hunting, if there is little for them to shoot?

I can see a season where killing only spikes and four point or larger would change the genetics.  Many whitetail in a normal food supply have  two or three points the first year. The shooting of spikes would change the number of deer that have spikes the first year, if that is genetically controlled.

This is a proposal that was not brought forward by the average hunter. It was brought forward by guides, more money, County commissioners, more tourism, trophy hunters, easier bragging perception. If there is a place for this type of hunting in Washington, it is not in the two units where it is proposed.

[PA BEN]

When I lived in Chewelah I went to a few meetings of these hunter groups. They would invite these two county commissioners. The group would bitch about the bow hunters killing all the big bucks before they would get into the woods. I talked as a bow hunter and received crap from the one running the meeting, they ran me off. The poor muzzleloader hunter had no voice at all. BTW, I knew most of the gun hunters there, and most were road hunters. There idea was 4 point restriction back in the mid. 90's. This would leave more big bucks for them. So, back then deer were eating the farmers out of house and home they wanted 4 point restriction, so now there using the low deer #'s to get there way. Back in the winter of 93, blue tong hit the deer real hard before the winter, a lot of deer were killed that winter. The next season I finely shot my buck the last day of season at 11:30 am in a snow storm. It didn't take long for the deer to come back. I believe this is all about gun hunters trying to get there way.    

[buckhorn2]

If it worked the way oregons 4 point regulations it;s going to put a lot of nice 3 points dead in the fields.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The current proposal allows youth, senior, and disabled seasons to remain the same.  IMO- the regulation is good for the deer, and (therefore) good for hunters and others that enjoy wildlife.

It's a 'pilot program' that would be in effect for ~5 years.  We would have to defend the results at that time and if it's not helping the herd we would go back to the original season regs.  There are lots of places to hunt up here that allow any buck hunting, let's give it a try and see what happens.  There are likely going to be some benefits to the deer herd.   

I read much of the OL article too... those seemed to be mostly related to social issues within hunt clubs.  One article did mention that several years of trigger control had no effect on the herd...but they were on a small piece of land, possibly without neighbors acting the same way.  This sort of landscape scale management would likely have some results.
 
I disagree about the 3 pt's getting poached...there are already laws about poaching, and there are lots of other units in the state with antler regulations.  To my knowledge, there has not been any real evidence of that happening in the past in WA.  Hopefully hunters are able to ID their targets before pulling the trigger.