good day 4 the tribe

[bobcat]

I do know the tribes in many cases have done positive things for fish and fish habitat. They oftentimes force the state (or private landowners) to protect and/or restore salmon and steelhead habitat, among other positive things. I'm not so sure about anything they have done to improve wildlife populations in areas outside of their reservations.

I know it's been mentioned before, but if the tribes want to have a positive influence on deer and elk numbers, why don't they hunt cougars with hounds in all the areas they are allowed to hunt? It seems like the perfect way to get around the ban on hound hunting, and the diminishing numbers of deer and elk due to the increase in cougar numbers. I'm sure there are guys with hounds that would be happy to take tribal members out to kill some cats. Is there any reason this can't be done? Does anyone know?

[Special T]

Sounds Like some Houndsmen should make friends with some local tribesmen.. Sounds like a Win Win to me. 

[bobcat]

Sounds Like some Houndsmen should make friends with some local tribesmen.. Sounds like a Win Win to me. 

Exactly!  If they could knock the cat population down by say, 50%, just think of all the deer and elk we would have. Then there would be no need to be so concerned with a few deer and elk the tribes take every year.

[Practical Approach]

I do know the tribes in many cases have done positive things for fish and fish habitat. They oftentimes force the state (or private landowners) to protect and/or restore salmon and steelhead habitat, among other positive things. I'm not so sure about anything they have done to improve wildlife populations in areas outside of their reservations.

I know it's been mentioned before, but if the tribes want to have a positive influence on deer and elk numbers, why don't they hunt cougars with hounds in all the areas they are allowed to hunt? It seems like the perfect way to get around the ban on hound hunting, and the diminishing numbers of deer and elk due to the increase in cougar numbers. I'm sure there are guys with hounds that would be happy to take tribal members out to kill some cats. Is there any reason this can't be done? Does anyone know?

Not positive, I think it might be ok if the tribal hunter is hunting under his own tags using someone's dogs or his or her own dogs, but if you have a non-Indian hound hunter/observer in the group, that person could be cited by enforcment.  This pertains to off reservation hunting. 

[WSU]

I would like for once an Indian or a White Guilt person to have ONE SINGLE comback and actually debate me about 1. Proper Game Managment and what the tribes does for the Colockum.  Or 2. The fact that it's okay that hunting in WA fits the definition of discrimination to a T. 

I did, and you copped out saying you had to wake up early and then never got back to give any response.  Here was your post:

"The main problem I have with the situation is not so much the fact that some Indians choose to take advantage of the laws its this.  The treaty that was signed and the Boldt Decision if either of those two ever went to federal court would be deemed unconstitutional.  The reason being is that they are both EXTREMELY descriminatory.  You can not create nor enforce laws that create discrimination.  Look up the definition of DISCRIMINATION in the dictionary and you will find that Indian hunting rights compared to American's hunting rights fits that definition to a T.  You and other defenders of Indians like to talk about how nothing can change because of "The Treaty"  You are ALL mistaken.  Because you see it used to be legal to own slaves.  That law changed.  There used to be laws called the Jim Crow laws that allowed segregation and was highly discriminatory.  Those laws were deemed unconstitutional.   And rightly so.  Therefore do not think your treaty is so unchanable.  Also its not the treaty that gave you these unconstitutional rights, it was the Boldt Decision which can EASILY be overturned.  So my question to you is why do you feel that discrimination is okay.  Why you should get more rights and should get to play by different rules than I do. So please tell us....."

And so I did.  I made a long post about why each of your theories was wrong, and why it wasn't "ALL" of us that were mistaken, but in fact you.  Your response, once someone actually "steps up" and debates you, was this:

"Good Stuff WSU,

Been waiting for a reply from somebody like that for about 6 months now.  Thankyou for that, that's the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to this site for.  I don't have alot of time to write an appropriate response to that because I have a 0530 flight tomorrow morning.  So I will only touch on one point because it'll take only a few minutes.  Rather than trying to counter some of the other stuff you mentioned because it would take more time.

A treaty is basically an agreement, a contract if you will between two parties.  And treaties become null and void if one side breaches that contract.  In the particular treaty of 1855 ARTICLE 9 says basically Indians are not allowed to drink.  Obviously this Article is violated daily.  (Please no one read into that,  if you looked at any city in America someone in that town drank a beer that day) 

Whiteeyes you missed my point once again.  I know the history of both our people.  You circumnavigated my point.  I'm saying changes need to be made so everyone is treated equal.  At least outside of the reservation. 

I will enjoy debating this further but I have a 0330 wakeup.  Take Care."

Debate away.  Here is the page if you care to go back and draft a response: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,57995.msg718766.html#msg718766

[6x6rack]

Man there are some people doing a great job of wagging the dog since I last visited. Bear and Cougar are knocking down VERY few trophy animals. How do I know this...because only 2 out of 100 animals in the collockum is a mature bull. The problem with the Colockum herd is simply bull to cow ratios (5/100 and that includes ALL bulls) and bull escapement (IE why YOU can only take a true spike). The cows are not being bred by mature bulls, and over 50% of the time cows are'nt being bred at all. There are no bulls. A few indians will kill more mature bulls than all the tag holders, bears and cougars combined and there are alot more than a few Indians doing this. Hell, they kill the ones they didnt get during the rest of the year right off the feeding station. The State and the WDFW should immediately turn off the ridiculous financial support we give to EVERY tribe that refuses to step up and be part of the solution. This would include factual harvest reports, setting seasons and limits and severe penalties for Tribal violations. Of course they will never do that. Right now they have no incentive...We are PAYING them to wipe out the herds by ignoring the problem and not shutting off financial support. We dont make them pay tax's when they are off reservation, we allow them to buy private land with casino money and roll it into the reservation, thus further reducing tax revenue (Snoqualmie Lodge for example at $34 million CASH is now off the books for the State), we pay for any improvements they want to make to the reservation (You paid $28 million for the Sequim Tribal Center and restoring the creek THEY destroyed when they built the casino and now they want to CLOSE the PUBLIC road to the center WE paid for, and you gotta love the septic system for the whole place 60' off puget sound) They can take half the harvest every year of species' with a two to five year maturity cycle...do the math there...can you say DECIMATED. Anyone who argues Indians are not a huge part of the problem is an Indian...and laughing every time they post as they cruise the site picking off clues as to where the animals are. Rat-Bass-Turds. You can help by voting our current Gov out next election. She receives over $300,000 in funding from the tribes....and they have laughed all the way to the bank. "It's our treaty rights only Tribes are allowed Casinos"...give me a flippin break. You can also quit going to Casinos, the Snoqualmie Lodge, Emerald Downs etc. Every meal you have with them is funding the decimation of wildlife. Every Cigarette or drink you buy from them is decimating wildlife. Every vote for Gregoire is decimating wildlife. One voice is a whisper...add yours and eventually it is a roar. Keep waggin' the dog you reckless indian idiots...I can't wait until it turns and bites the chit out you. How do Yakima Indians like their food...POACHED.

[grundy53]

 

[tlbradford]

6x6rack - Just wanted to formally welcome you to the site.  I have enjoyed your posts this past week and you sum up my thoughts to a tee.

[bobcat]

The indian problem is definitely a MAJOR problem, no doubt about it. It's right up there with cougars/wolves. Great post 6x6rack!

[6x6rack]

Thanks TL,

I have really enjoyed the site, there are some terrific people on here, and I have a feeling its places like this that will eventually spearhead change. Not only legally, but in the actions of every sportsman regarding where they spend their money and how they vote. Heck, maby someone like Dan Agnew skips a year of 400" bulls and starts a fund for a legal challenge to the tribes blatent decimation of public resources. If every sportsman skipped only one year of hunting and fishing and sent the money to that fund WDFW and the Tribes would be pissing all over themselves to get to the table for real change.

[WSU]

Thanks TL,

I have really enjoyed the site, there are some terrific people on here, and I have a feeling its places like this that will eventually spearhead change. Not only legally, but in the actions of every sportsman regarding where they spend their money and how they vote. Heck, maby someone like Dan Agnew skips a year of 400" bulls and starts a fund for a legal challenge to the tribes blatent decimation of public resources. If every sportsman skipped only one year of hunting and fishing and sent the money to that fund WDFW and the Tribes would be pissing all over themselves to get to the table for real change.

I do have to say agree with a lot of what you are saying.  A lot of the tribes money comes from casinos, etc., and we are all paying to shoot ourselves in the foot by spending our money their (by we I mean the general populous, I personally haven't gone to any tribal casinos). 

I have a question though: what legal change do you think we all could make if given the resources?

[whacker1]

Thanks TL,

I have really enjoyed the site, there are some terrific people on here, and I have a feeling its places like this that will eventually spearhead change. Not only legally, but in the actions of every sportsman regarding where they spend their money and how they vote. Heck, maby someone like Dan Agnew skips a year of 400" bulls and starts a fund for a legal challenge to the tribes blatent decimation of public resources. If every sportsman skipped only one year of hunting and fishing and sent the money to that fund WDFW and the Tribes would be pissing all over themselves to get to the table for real change.

I do have to say agree with a lot of what you are saying.  A lot of the tribes money comes from casinos, etc., and we are all paying to shoot ourselves in the foot by spending our money their (by we I mean the general populous, I personally haven't gone to any tribal casinos). 

I have a question though: what legal change do you think we all could make if given the resources?

A governor with a backbone to start - not on the Indian Campaign contribution platform. 

2.  An outreach program spearheaded by WDFW via new governor to the tribes to get their buy in.  Some tribes already cooperate with some harvest data to certain extents, but many do not.  Further outreach I think is a priority.  Get the tribal leadership on board and positive things can happen.  I am merely talking about harvest data cooperation at a minimum benchmark

3.  as extension of outreach program - get tribal leadership to monitor hunting pressure.  The leadership can direct their members to stay out of certain units for good reasons, and the only ones that can hold the members accountable.   They don't have to prosecute their members for violation - they merely can cut funding to those members if they don't cooperate. 

4.  There is a tribe in WA that has stated in so many words that if you don't play by the leadership's rules then you will receive "0" dollars from the casino.  By Rules - I mean improving their image.  Low and behold over a several year period of time the properties have been cleaned up, single wides removed and modest 1500-2000 square foot homes built.  It is a small reservation, but they are making headway.  There are still some trouble members on the reservation, but overall they are making significant improvements to their reservation and the members are not seen in the same light as they were just a few years ago.  They understand that Public Perception is huge. 

[GEARHEAD]

everybody talks sht about the tribes and believe me they deserve every bit of it. but the casino lots are always full. want to hurt them. boycott these establishements, beg your friends and family to do it too. the tribes are a greedy corrupt government, separate from the United States. they exploit and ignore their people while dividing the monies amongst the leaders and families that run everything.

Don't give them a Dime, don't forget some of those dimes will fund elections and recounts.

[Special T]

I think when you follow the money you get the whole story... I think hunting/ fishing issues are not pressed because the current politicians do not want to upset the balance of power and political $$$ that stems from their(politicians) coalition... If i remember something that Colocum elk once said, and hopefully he will correct me if I am wrong, that the WDFW COULD close all hunting including tribal in an emergency... If that is in fact the case, then the WDFW refuses to get serious about the matter. It may be because of politicians influence, Pissing off hunters and the $$ they represent, or a combination of the 2... Politicians will hang it out on the line when they know its good for them, so far there may not have been an up side. Just a  sandwich... 

[phishisgroovin]

if they closed Colockum completely for a few years, unfortunately the bulls there currently would grow enormously and when it reopened anyone unable to hunt the reserve would be hosed and life as usual would be the norm still.
Tribals would go in and slaughter the bulls on the reserve BEFORE they made it back out to where we the Hunters could bag one.

was thinking about this last night, whatever improvements the closure of colockum did would be lost in a few short weeks by Tribal members and their 7 tags EACH per year. (muckleshoot indians each get 7 tags per year per tribal member)