high fenced "preserve" hunt

[deerhunter_98520]

i was lookin on youtube at rosie hunts and came across these guys...$23,900 for a 490''-500'' bull 
220'' deer  is $21,800...this is rediculous!  ...they turn them loose around june or july...i guess i will never understand these
they say its a "fair chase" enviroment 

http://www.silvertine.ca/dates--rates-2012.html

[Hunterman]

That sounds just about the right cost for a day hunt in Washington next year   

Hunterman(Tony)

[deerhunter_98520]

after a day of chasing rosies on the coast here i feel like i should be makin that much for workin so hard 

[carpsniperg2]

There is many styles of high fence hunting and preserve hunting. Some are way more fair chase then any. There are some real junk hunts out there and there are some great ones. Look at starky in oregon thousands of acres all inside a fence. Those elk are very mush fair chase hunts. It just depends on the people running it and the area people are hunting in. I have seen the good and the bad sides of it. When they turn more into a harvest then a hunt then you have a problem and its not even close to hunting.

[MtnMuley]

I beg to differ. There are NO high fence hunts that are are by any means, "very much fair chase hunts".

[lokidog]

That sounds just about the right cost for a day hunt in Washington next year   

Hunterman(Tony)

Yeah and that's only for the state fees on "public" ground......   

[carpsniperg2]

I beg to differ. There are NO high fence hunts that are are by any means, "very much fair chase hunts".

You can beg to differ all you like. If you want to say a 20,000 acre preserve is not a very much fair chase hunt you have no idea

[bobcat]

I don't care so much if it's non-native big game species that are being "hunted" inside a fence, but I'm 100% against any kind of high fence hunting for native species of deer and elk in this country. Which I guess would mainly be Rocky Mountain elk and whitetail deer. Wildlife is supposed to belong to the public, not fenced in and used for the profit of landowners.

[lokidog]

The guy we hunted deer with in SK last fall had a high fence elk hunt he offered on his ranch.  It was a square mile, 640 acres.  He said he had to cross fence it as many of the "hunters" never even saw the elk in their week long hunts.

IMHO, 640 or 320 acres, not much of a hunt, as mentioned by Carp, 20,000 acres is a big difference.  Not sure I would do one either way though, personally.

[blackveltbowhunter]

I don't care so much if it's non-native big game species that are being "hunted" inside a fence, but I'm 100% against any kind of high fence hunting for native species of deer and elk in this country. Which I guess would mainly be Rocky Mountain elk and whitetail deer. Wildlife is supposed to belong to the public, not fenced in and used for the profit of landowners.

   That about sums it up perfect!

[MtnMuley]

I beg to differ. There are NO high fence hunts that are are by any means, "very much fair chase hunts".

You can beg to differ all you like. If you want to say a 20,000 acre preserve is not a very much fair chase hunt you have no idea

Good luck convincing anybody with any common sense on that statement. There's no such thing as high fences in fair chase hunting. With your wealth of information, I'd have figured you knew that.

[JimmyHoffa]

I don't care so much if it's non-native big game species that are being "hunted" inside a fence, but I'm 100% against any kind of high fence hunting for native species of deer and elk in this country. Which I guess would mainly be Rocky Mountain elk and whitetail deer. Wildlife is supposed to belong to the public, not fenced in and used for the profit of landowners.

So, are you suggesting that WDFW or some agency should remove all the native wildlife on a highfence operation?  (Not trying to be an azz here, just curious)  If it is private property I see no reason why the owners shouldn't be allowed to fence it, then manage what resources they have.  Is the issue that the animals can no longer leave to be hunted on adjacent public property?  I don't see why the owners shouldn't benefit if they are assuming the responsibility of the animals (food, range, security).  Since it is private property, the land and animals on it are not able to be hunted without owner approval, so I don't see the issue if it is a herd of 5 animals or 5,000 in the fence used for a commercial hunting operation.  Since it's private, I just assume it is a housing development or a military base or something.
But, it is kind of difficult to define how public property (animals) in this case are landlocked by private ownership.  Should there be a reimbursement to the WDFW for the original animals that are taken out of circulation by the fence?  My opinion is that animals should be viewed as a resource similar to trees or rocks or oil...whoever owns the land owns the resource on it--if an animal moves to a different area then it changes ownership. 

[MtnMuley]

You can own the land, but you CANNOT own the wildlife that uses it.

[deerslyr]

 

[carpsniperg2]

Thank you for the compliments. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. If there is a fence then it can never be 100% fair chase. By no means am I saying that it can ever be 100% fair chase. I said "very much fair chase" in the fact that you have to hunt for the animal. A elk in 20,000 acres, I know for a fact that I could not kill one everytime I hunted. Some people might think they can but I would love to see it. Everyone will have there own ideas. I know that I am one of the few guys with my wealth of information on hunting and guiding and differnt trips around the world Know that some hunts are more fair chase then others. That is my idea and by no means does anyone have to share this idea.

 

[JimmyHoffa]

I beg to differ. There are NO high fence hunts that are are by any means, "very much fair chase hunts".

You can beg to differ all you like. If you want to say a 20,000 acre preserve is not a very much fair chase hunt you have no idea

Good luck convincing anybody with any common sense on that statement. There's no such thing as high fences in fair chase hunting. With your wealth of information, I'd have figured you knew that.

I agree with carp.  It varies by operation.  Animals have home ranges that in many cases are smaller than the operation.  So the animal isn't really confined at all.  Some places, whitetails will spend their entire life within an area about 1/2 square mile.  An animal like that will likely not be affected by the fence if the land is large enough.  One place an old neighbor would go to was only like 120 acres, but had about 100 deer on it (most bucks were extremely large).  They would have all kinds of guys go there with their bows talking about how many deer they've killed elsewhere, but those guys rarely even saw any of the deer.  What are thoughts regarding hunting on an island?  The animals are basically fenced there too.

[lokidog]

Jimmy, don't go there with the island thing... everyone thinks they just walk right up to us already!     

[carpsniperg2]

  Some very points jimmy.

Lokidog its o.k your swamp rats are still great animals

[bobcat]

I simply do not agree with the private ownership of big game animals, and that's basically what you're doing if you're fencing them in. It doesn't happen in this state because it's illegal (at least there's one good thing about living here). It's the commercialization of hunting that I don't like. It's bad for the image of hunters and hunting all the way around, no matter how you want to look at it. Like I said, I couldn't care less if people want to pay to hunt non-native animals like hogs, goats, or whatever. But I just don't like seeing our native deer and elk turned into nothing but livestock.

[MtnMuley]

Agree with whoever. No worries here, because if an animal wants to drink from a nearby creek or seek refuge in a wooded area and is prevented from being able to do so because of an enclosed high fence preventing it, it is not fair chase. Fact.

[lokidog]

Hey, my "swamp rat" from this year had as much meat on it as the WT I pulled out of Saskatchewan, though the SK buck was just a 4X4 youngun.   

 

You can own the land, but you CANNOT own the wildlife that uses it.

How does that work with fencing an area preventing state "owned" wildlife from leaving?  Bobcat, how is it prevented from happening here?  Zoning doesn't allow for a deer/elk proof fence unless the animals are cleared out first?  Or is it just hunting inside one?  And how could that be legal preventing you from hunting your own land if that's the case?   

[bearpaw]

Just to clarify, I am pretty sure a private landowner can high fence any property in WA unless you are in town and there are restrictions agaist it. A landowner does not own any wild animals and anyone hunting wild animals inside the fence must purchase a hunting license and tags and follow seasons just the same as if he was hunting outside the fence.

Another thing that I would point out, South Africa has gone to more wildlife ranching and less livestock and it has been good for the wildlife and the country. Texas will most likely have hunting on private ranches long after hunting has been banned on public lands in other states. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying high fenced hunting is the only way to go, I am saying it doesn't hurt for it to happen for the folks who want to hunt that way. We used to call this a free country. 

[carpsniperg2]

I simply do not agree with the private ownership of big game animals, and that's basically what you're doing if you're fencing them in. It doesn't happen in this state because it's illegal (at least there's one good thing about living here). It's the commercialization of hunting that I don't like. It's bad for the image of hunters and hunting all the way around, no matter how you want to look at it. Like I said, I couldn't care less if people want to pay to hunt non-native animals like hogs, goats, or whatever. But I just don't like seeing our native deer and elk turned into nothing but livestock.

I understand that point 100%. There is many ways people look at that as well. There is good and bad and I understand both sides of it. Like the buffalo I am no expert on the subject, but I know if it was not for breeding programs and a lot of work to get them back. There would not be any left. There is bad that comes from farming wildlife as well. To me I really don't mind either way. It is not legal to enclose wild animals and own them, but if the animals are stock and raised from stock then its legal. So as long as it is legal it does not bother me if people raise them or own them. Wild animals are wild and not owned by any person. That's the way that it should be and I agree with that.

Words well wrote Dale

[PolarBear]

I don't care so much if it's non-native big game species that are being "hunted" inside a fence, but I'm 100% against any kind of high fence hunting for native species of deer and elk in this country. Which I guess would mainly be Rocky Mountain elk and whitetail deer. Wildlife is supposed to belong to the public, not fenced in and used for the profit of landowners.

I was watching RFDTV and they had an elk auction at some ranch in Oregon.  The were selling live bulls and sheds for huge prices.  My hunting buddy ran into one of the guys from this ranch at a livestock sale in Hermiston and he said that you wouldn't believe how many guys pay tens of thousands of dollars for huge bulls just to have them trucked to their ranch, released and immediately "hunted" down in in a round pen or fenced in pasture.  I can see buying top notched bulls to enhance a herd but to shoot it right out of a trailer with an ear tag still in it is about as sick as it gets in the "hunting" world.  Kinda like Troy Gentry shooting a bear in a pen.   

[bobcat]

I wasn't saying building a fence is illegal here. What's illegal is game farms. However I do know certain counties do regulate the types of fences people put up, so that in migratory areas the animals cannot be kept from getting to their winter range. I know this is the case in Okanogan County (Methow Valley in particular) but not sure about anywhere else.

[carpsniperg2]

Thats right polar bear nothing fair chase about it. Its a harvest not a hunt. This is a free country and people can do as they like. As long as it is legal. Its up to them and its there money. I would rather see someone go dump a elk instead of donating that chunk of change to peta or something like that it all come down to letting people do what they want as long as its legal. Some people may be against it but there are much worse things out there then people paying to shoot a elk. To each there own my friends

[bearpaw]

I wasn't saying building a fence is illegal here. What's illegal is game farms. However I do know certain counties do regulate the types of fences people put up, so that in migratory areas the animals cannot be kept from getting to their winter range. I know this is the case in Okanogan County (Methow Valley in particular) but not sure about anywhere else.

I didn't know that about migration routes, makes sense for that reason.

There are game farms, you have to get a game farm license. There are game farms with and without high fence. Depends on the animals you have if you need high fence. There are hunting areas in Washington which hunt native species in season and hunt feral species at other times of the year. WDFW has a list of what you can and cannot own and release or introduce within a fence. I know because I have looked into it, you can find the list on their website if you dig.

[carpsniperg2]

That is 100% correct they do not allow some animals, even exotic to be in preserves. They don't want the chance of any disease and also some animals can be very harmful if they were to become free. There is more then a few places in washington that have elk and deer still on there farm. Heck one of them is just down the river from me. It's still legal to own them and have them. It just has to be done the right way. Plus you have to pay taxes then it all works out

[deerhunter_98520]

let me ask you guys this...with these elk that they raise to ''trophy'' size and charge $20k+ to kill one...how wild are this things...if their raised in pens and let go around june or july when there 8 yrs old and mature animals...are dinner bells part of their hunting gear?...ding ding ding....get ready here he comes! hurry shoot  him before he gets to close i dont have any feed!

[bearpaw]

We do privately owned buffalo hunts in Montana and those buffalo are sometimes more wild than the wild ones that never get hunted in YNP. Carp is right about the buffalo, if it wasn't for private herds and Indian reservations there would not be many buffalo.

_________________________

Carp, they can't actually own wild animals, they may control access, but they don't own them. They can own the animals that are not wild animals.

[carpsniperg2]

Like said it depends on the operation a lot. That sounds like a low class deal and not very good. There is many preserves and hunts that the animals are born inside the preserve and live there whole life there. Like starky and many places in texas and new zesland and many other places around the world.  There is a huge bad image by hunters when it comes to preserves and hunting in them. I can take you to some that you could not even hunt and cover all the ground in a month if you tried. A lot of people think of a flat open pen you walk into and shoot a animal. There is operations that are like that. They are junk! There is good and bad. I would rather see a person work his butt off to harvest a animal in a preserve then see a guy drive down the road and blast a free range elk out the window of his truck.

There is a few game farms that have brought in animals. I thought that in that case they would own them like livestock. Just like bison.

[JimmyHoffa]

let me ask you guys this...with these elk that they raise to ''trophy'' size and charge $20k+ to kill one...how wild are this things...if their raised in pens and let go around june or july when there 8 yrs old and mature animals...are dinner bells part of their hunting gear?...ding ding ding....get ready here he comes! hurry shoot  him before he gets to close i dont have any feed!

It doesn't have to be in a pen/fence for this to happen.  I've seen plenty of wild deer that wait for a feeder to go off.  Or the deer/elk that wait around in someone's yard for the apple pile to be refilled.  Or even the elk that chase the trailer when the rancher goes to hay the cattle.

[bearpaw]

let me ask you guys this...with these elk that they raise to ''trophy'' size and charge $20k+ to kill one...how wild are this things...if their raised in pens and let go around june or july when there 8 yrs old and mature animals...are dinner bells part of their hunting gear?...ding ding ding....get ready here he comes! hurry shoot  him before he gets to close i dont have any feed!

They only get $20,000 for extemely large bulls, like over 450. You can hunt a 350 class bull cheaper on a high fence ranch than with most outfitters.

I'm not at all saying pen raised bulls are the same as wild bulls. But if the owners are keeping their records and immunizing as required by the states where they operate, it's none of my business if a guy wants to go shoot one. No different than shooting a domesticly raised buffalo or pheasant, or fishing for hatchery raised fish. Yes, I know, some guys don't beleive in any of that either.

That's when I suggest people read the bottom of my signature.

[bearpaw]

I hunted a place in Australia that is over 200,000 acres, all high fenced, we had as much fun there as I've ever had anywhere. I will argue with anyone that many of those animals were wilder than animals on the outside that weren't hunted as much.

[carpsniperg2]

I agree 100% Dale, some people still think that is a canned hunt and not fair chase. You have to hunt for them and that is what makes the chase It is not what most people think when they have ideas about hunting a preserve. Let them have there ideas, who cares. To each there own, and divided we fall and united we stand. Remember that people

[deerhunter_98520]

I hunted a place in Australia that is over 200,000 acres, all high fenced, we had as much fun there as I've ever had anywhere. I will argue with anyone that many of those animals were wilder than animals on the outside that weren't hunted as much.

atleast with that much land the animals have a chance to survive and roam...i just didnt like that fact that they let the animals go a month or 2 before the hunt...they should be all wild runnin around...but thats just me...everyone has their own style of hunting and thats fine...if they want to spend 10-20grand to hunt thats their choice

[bearpaw]

No doubt it's a tough topic and there are abuses just like anything else. I have a friend who has an elk ranch in Idaho right in the mountains, you can shoot a 300 class bull for $4000. Not saying everyone should run and do that, just pointing out that its cheaper than many think. A lot of guys with limited mobility do these hunts, also a lot of guys take their wives and young kids. I've got a guy coming from Denmark to hunt cougar, then he's going to shoot a 400ish type bull. He has hunted all over the world for all types of game but never killed a big elk. I'm glad he is bringing some $$$ to our country.

I once took an older gentleman to shoot a big bull on a preserve, he was a decorated veteran, had written for numerous magazines, he was a past olympic shooter, a past state legislator, hunted all over north america, a very accomplished man. He had never killed a big bull and it was something he wanted to before he died after he was diagnosed with cancer. That was one of the most rewarding hunts I have ever done. The taxidermist got it done within 2 months and the guy had it in his home for a month before he passed away. It's hanging on my wall now and it reminds me of a special time.

One thing that does iritate me a little is when a guy kills a 450 class bull and tries to pass it off as a free range hunt. If that was really a wild hunt he would be featured in every major magazine. 

South Africa made it against the law to "release and shoot", I saw the law once but can't remember exactly how it reads. I think at least some animals have to be raised freely on the property to hunt them now. That might be lions....

[MtnMuley]

High fences The American way these days. All about the dollar. Hell with ethics. Bet Teddy Roosevelt would be impressed.

[bearpaw]

High fences The American way these days. All about the dollar. Hell with ethics. Bet Teddy Roosevelt would be impressed.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as the next guy.   

[Arteman]

I really don't see the difference in these high fenced free ranging animals on these big ranches with thousands of acres than those eastside guys with huge no fenced ranches that hold tons of resident deer that only them, their families, and friends can hunt.  They can basically breed them as big as they want with plots and all then put them in the books. Not saying it isn't their right to, but you want to gripe about fair chase, only fair chase I know is on public land or private lands made accessible to all the public.  Trophies taken on these lands to me is more of a trophy than anything.  I agree with Carp, if its legal and their thing then so be it.  They dont get recognition in the books, just center pieces for the rich.  Let them do their thing.

[MtnMuley]

If they are such big ranches that the elk would never leave anyway, then why not pull the fences???

[bearpaw]

If they are such big ranches that the elk would never leave anyway, then why not pull the fences???

It's not legal to release privately owned elk into the wild in any state that I know of. 

[MtnMuley]

My point wasn't to let "domestic elk" out, but moreover to allow wild elk to come and go.  Basically, if they had a great ranch with prime habitat, then why have a high fence around it?  Would they be afraid their "canned" hunts would'nt pan out as well? The hunts wouldn't be a guarantee then?

[Camp David]

I went to Argentina last year to bow hunt red stag. The estancia offered high fences and free range hunting. We hunted the free range for the first 2 days. I was against going in to the high fence; I thought it was unfair. We saw Lots of animals in the free range area, but it was fairly open terrain. My guides were more of the mindset of rifle hunting and didn’t really have the patience and skills for putting on a good stalk.  Talked with my hunting partner and he agreed that we should give the high fence area a try especially after we realized it was over 200 square miles! The area was perfect for bow hunting with plenty of great areas to stalk. Yes we drove through a gate, but never saw the fence again once we left it behind us; we walked for miles each day. There was an outstanding amount of animals, but at no time did I feel that they were anything different than totally wild. My buddy tried for several day to take a stag with his bow after I got mine, but had to resort to taking one with a rifle on the last day. I know that there are many types of high fence hunts, but this changed my thoughts about hunting high fence.