Author Topic: Quality bull permits (Read 9128 times)

plugger · « **on:** January 18, 2012, 07:04:41 PM »

So what are some opinions on what can be done or not with the way the permit system is conducted. This is only for elk quality bull. This is just my opinion but no one should have to wait more than ten years to draw one. I know that there very limited and not much can be done. I think a waiting period for those fortunate enough to draw one, say 5 years to thin the pool some but also be able to put in for dummy hunts to build points. This would keep the revenue coming and weed out the ones who get drawn with less than 5 points

With all the other hunts to apply for now, everyone would still have hunts to apply for

buglebuster · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:08:21 PM »

In a state where points don't matter, nothing will help

adamR · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:12:21 PM »

I really enjoy the new permit system. The point thing kind of sucks for some but I have been very fortunate lately. My mother-in-law has 12 points and can't even get drawn for cow so I do understand that some get screwed, but not me personally.

bobcat · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:14:18 PM »

So a hunt that only offers 1 permit and has 2000 people apply for it every year... why should everyone who wants it be able to draw it every 10 years? It's just not possible. That's a bit of an extreme example, but it all depends on which hunts you apply for. The only way to make permits easier to draw would be to do away with general seasons and make all elk hunting by permit only. Then they could issue a lot more permits.

Having a waiting period really won't improve draw odds much, because the people that are drawn each year are only a small fraction of the number of applicants each year.

BrushChimp · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:30:55 PM »

Just FYI, after reviewing other states throughout the West, I believe Washington has one of the best point systems available. Could be like Oregon where 75% of the permits go to the highest point holders. Not good. Some Oregon residents that starting putting in now won't draw their elite tags for 20+ years. At least when you apply here you know you have a small chance even with 1 point. Those poor chaps have, statistically, a 0% chance to draw in many units for many years.

STIKNSTRINGBOW · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:47:51 PM »

Quote from: BrushChimp on January 18, 2012, 07:30:55 PM

Just FYI, after reviewing other states throughout the West, I believe Washington has one of the best point systems available. Could be like Oregon where 75% of the permits go to the highest point holders. Not good. Some Oregon residents that starting putting in now won't draw their elite tags for 20+ years. At least when you apply here you know you have a small chance even with 1 point. Those poor chaps have, statistically, a 0% chance to draw in many units for many years.

I get tired of listening to all the bellyaching, when you consider that Washington is the third smallest state in the west, with the second highest population, Elk hunters outnumber the Elk, and if we were allowed to have a system where we could have more than a snowballs chance in hell of harvesting "quality" bulls, there would be VERY limited DRAW ONLY opportunitty within the state.
If you want to hunt Elk, we have a good system, if you want to hunt "quality" Elk , then you have to pay the price.
I have been lucky enough to draw 3 times for Observatory C, average of 6 points each time, if you want to hunt "The Blues", or "Peaches Ridge", then it takes a few more...
But, your choices reflect the difficulty in drawing, there are "quality" animals in almost every unit, and if you want to put out the effort required, then sometimes having to wait years for the chance is the price you pay, but get real, if you really want a 400" Elk, you need to go to a state that has MORE ELK, and LESS ELK HUNTERS.

asl20bball · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:46:49 AM »

Quote from: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 18, 2012, 07:47:51 PM

I get tired of listening to all the bellyaching, when you consider that Washington is the third smallest state in the west, with the second highest population, Elk hunters outnumber the Elk, and if we were allowed to have a system where we could have more than a snowballs chance in hell of harvesting "quality" bulls, there would be VERY limited DRAW ONLY opportunitty within the state.
If you want to hunt Elk, we have a good system, if you want to hunt "quality" Elk , then you have to pay the price.
I have been lucky enough to draw 3 times for Observatory C, average of 6 points each time, if you want to hunt "The Blues", or "Peaches Ridge", then it takes a few more...
But, your choices reflect the difficulty in drawing, there are "quality" animals in almost every unit, and if you want to put out the effort required, then sometimes having to wait years for the chance is the price you pay, but get real, if you really want a 400" Elk, you need to go to a state that has MORE ELK, and LESS ELK HUNTERS.

well said.

MADMAX · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:59:16 AM »

I'm OK with it.
I have drawn and tagged out in the Margaret , Peaches, and Toutle twice now.

Wenatcheejay · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »

Quote from: bobcat on January 18, 2012, 07:14:18 PM

So a hunt that only offers 1 permit and has 2000 people apply for it every year... why should everyone who wants it be able to draw it every 10 years? It's just not possible. That's a bit of an extreme example, but it all depends on which hunts you apply for. The only way to make permits easier to draw would be to do away with general seasons and make all elk hunting by permit only. Then they could issue a lot more permits.

Having a waiting period really won't improve draw odds much, because the people that are drawn each year are only a small fraction of the number of applicants each year.

It is not an extreme position it's a realistic one bobcat. They could offer an additional point that could be purchesed each year. Some States do that. However, how many people would complain about that as well for the same reasons if they do not draw?

atfulldraw · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:29:02 AM »

Well said sticknstringbow.

trophyhunt · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:34:58 AM »

I say get rid of the points and have a wait period for those who draw for 5 years (quality only). Then you don't have to listen to guys like me with 17 points whinning when we see guys with 2 points drawing tags that we put in for consistantly. Im done with this point system as soon as I zero out, after that I will hunt muzzy or archery in the unit I want to hunt with no more waiting for the special tag. These points have kept me from hunting my favorite west side units that are over the counter tags, I'm not complaining about that, it's my own fault for wanting a coveted blues tag. I just want an oppertunity to hunt 350+ bulls in that beautiful country before the wolves eat most of them.

BULLBLASTER · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2012, 09:28:22 AM »

If you exclude people who have drawn in the last 5 years in the blues you maybe taking 100 people out of.the pool. For a unit with 20 tags. When 2000 people apply for those tags the 100 won't make much difference in odds.

jackmaster · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2012, 09:33:21 AM »

Quote from: bobcat on January 18, 2012, 07:14:18 PM

So a hunt that only offers 1 permit and has 2000 people apply for it every year... why should everyone who wants it be able to draw it every 10 years? It's just not possible. That's a bit of an extreme example, but it all depends on which hunts you apply for. The only way to make permits easier to draw would be to do away with general seasons and make all elk hunting by permit only. Then they could issue a lot more permits.

Having a waiting period really won't improve draw odds much, because the people that are drawn each year are only a small fraction of the number of applicants each year.

Woodchuck · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2012, 09:34:13 AM »

Huntbear · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »

Uhhhhhh Jim? That poor horse is dead.. quit abusing the corpse..

Woodchuck · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:27:06 AM »

Good point, sorry.

rippinlips22 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:41:32 AM »

Quote from: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 18, 2012, 07:47:51 PM

Quote from: BrushChimp on January 18, 2012, 07:30:55 PM
Just FYI, after reviewing other states throughout the West, I believe Washington has one of the best point systems available. Could be like Oregon where 75% of the permits go to the highest point holders. Not good. Some Oregon residents that starting putting in now won't draw their elite tags for 20+ years. At least when you apply here you know you have a small chance even with 1 point. Those poor chaps have, statistically, a 0% chance to draw in many units for many years.

I get tired of listening to all the bellyaching, when you consider that Washington is the third smallest state in the west, with the second highest population, Elk hunters outnumber the Elk, and if we were allowed to have a system where we could have more than a snowballs chance in hell of harvesting "quality" bulls, there would be VERY limited DRAW ONLY opportunitty within the state.
If you want to hunt Elk, we have a good system, if you want to hunt "quality" Elk , then you have to pay the price.
I have been lucky enough to draw 3 times for Observatory C, average of 6 points each time, if you want to hunt "The Blues", or "Peaches Ridge", then it takes a few more...
But, your choices reflect the difficulty in drawing, there are "quality" animals in almost every unit, and if you want to put out the effort required, then sometimes having to wait years for the chance is the price you pay, but get real, if you really want a 400" Elk, you need to go to a state that has MORE ELK, and LESS ELK HUNTERS.

Well said! I have 11 points and have yet to get drawn for a quality bull tag. I am good with it and know my time is coming. Hope to take well advantage of my hunt when I do get drawn. I have also started putting my 10 year old son into quality bull tags so he has a good chance to get drawn at least 2-3 times, maybe more, in his lifetime before he gets to old to hunt for a quality bull, if he chooses. Same thing for a moose. Hopefully he will get drawn for a youth moose tag this year!

I am good with the point system we have at this point. Doubt they, WDFW, can make any better.

coachcw · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:48:18 AM »

With the number of applicants if you drew every ten years it would take long before it wasn't a quality hunt!

ELKBURGER · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2012, 12:11:10 PM »

If the state finds a way to increase revenue, there will be changes. It wont matter if the resident like it or not, Its just a matter of time.

furbearer365 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2012, 03:08:10 PM »

The only way i could see it being easier for guys with more points to draw would be to divide all the hunts up and give them a rank. Meaning, have hunts that guys with 1-3 points can put in for, then hunts that guys with 4-6 points, and so on. Then when you have a certain amount of points you know what you are able to put in for and are for the most part competing against guys with the same amount of points. But i truely like the way it is. I do get frustrated when a guy draws a tag with 2 and i put in for it with 12 and didnt draw, but that is what is fun about it. Its not that upsetting because if i draw with 12 and i have to start all over, i want to think it is still possible with 1.

Wenatcheejay · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2012, 03:17:40 PM »

Hey, just saying there is a section for "whining" in the Speak Your Mind area

steen · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2012, 03:59:26 PM »

To rippinlips22, I'm sure glad you are putting your son in for a youth hunt. The average points is about 3 and it would be a good way to get him ready for a quality bull hunt!

plugger · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2012, 05:35:57 PM »

I dont think I was winning, Sure it can be frustrating, I just basicly ask what peoples thoughts were on the subject. I like the system way better now than I did before. Just wanted to hear what other think

JLS · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2012, 05:51:31 PM »

Washington's point system is the same as Montana's and Nevada's, so we're not the only folks doing it. I still think it's crap that a hunter can apply for five different permit classes. Eliminating that and making each hunter choose one (i.e. branch antler or antlerless) would increase odds for some permits.

Units like the Wenaha would always be tough, not much different than drawing a sheep tag. It's simple drawing odds math and no point system will alleviate that.

BENCHLEG · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2012, 05:58:12 PM »

all i have to say about this is wdfw you are all about $$$$$$$$$$ .

splitshot · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2012, 06:58:54 PM »

the main problem is population, too many people. and we keep letting them in. i remember when anyone could shoot any elk in the blues if you have a tag. i also remember when the deer season was 4 full weeks and the elk was 2 weeks. more people , more restrictions. mike w

Wenatcheejay · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2012, 07:48:05 AM »

Quote from: splitshot on January 19, 2012, 06:58:54 PM

the main problem is population, too many people. and we keep letting them in. i remember when anyone could shoot any elk in the blues if you have a tag. i also remember when the deer season was 4 full weeks and the elk was 2 weeks. more people , more restrictions. mike w

SEE, I keep saying we need to transport wolves to King County, thin down the herd of sheeple. But noooo, you people never listen to me.

coachcw · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2012, 12:31:39 PM »

they need tag quatas even for general season . that way they could limit tribal harvest , there is no 50% inless we limit all seasons .

soccerguy · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2012, 07:28:38 PM »

I was lucky enough this past fall to draw the coveted quality tag after 16 years of trying. My previous quality tag was the second year the Margaret unit was opened for hunting. The math??? Almost a 20 year year wait. Both hunts were "once-in-life" experiences, but I've now had two of them. The Margaret tag was memorable for the ridiculous numbers of bulls seen and the tag in 2011 was for the 350 typical 6X6 I was able to take on opening day. Was the wait worth it?? No doubt in my mind, but then i am very patient. However, I also apply to as many as 9 other states every year and have drawn some "quality" tags in them as well. Are there some "quality" hunts in other states that take less than 20 years to draw and yet do not cost a fortune....yes!!! One example: In Arizona, you can purchase a nonresident hunting license and purchase an elk preference point for around $30 for a youth starting at age 10 (no hunters ed required). At age 18 and a total cost of around $300, they have 8 preference points are able to draw virtually any of the late season rifle hunts in the state. These are easliy equal to, and in some cases far better, then most "quality" hunts here. The moral-do your homework and look at other options as well.

One comment about my tag last fall-it was a rifle rut tag on the East side, so it was in one of the very best quality units.

Skyvalhunter · « **Reply #29 on:** January 21, 2012, 07:36:15 PM »

Pics are proof

Bigshooter · « **Reply #30 on:** January 21, 2012, 07:38:17 PM »

I have applied in every western state but calif. Washington has by far one of the fairest points systems. The only thing that I would like to see change is you get 1 choice for qualtiy permits and 2 choices for everything else.

GoPlayOutside · « **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2012, 10:20:38 PM »

What is your idea of "Quality Bull" in this state? That is where the debate/question is.
In my Opinion....You just have to realize that a true "Quality Bull tag" in this State will require massive patience, or Luck. As I sit on my 10 points, I realize that the 2 units I put in for could take another 10-20 years...that's my choice.
However, I can hunt "Quality Bulls" in other states almost every other year.

To me...Quality worth the waiting 10-30 years for in my home state (WA) is 350"+ in the Rut. However, I will hold a Washington 350" bull in the same regards as a Arizona 390", New Mexico 380", Wyoming 380", etc.

I just REALLY want a Nice/Quality Bull in my home state! So I am happy to wait.
(Now you can see why people get so pissed about poaching and "folks" that don't play by the WDFW's rules) now that's a topic that has

MADMAX · « **Reply #32 on:** January 23, 2012, 05:37:46 AM »

If we could hunt the westside general season and apply for the eastside them maybe I would understand that a 350 bull is definetely quality, public land archery hunting on the westside, unless you pack in or have horses , is no picnic.
I don't like eastside hunting spikes and waiting for ever to draw for branched.
I was pretty darn happy with taking a 4x4 archery bull on my quality tag.
Thats my choice

Kowsrule30 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 23, 2012, 01:38:18 PM »

I don't think much more could be changed and it would never be liked by all or most.... What I would like changed.... One choice for every category... Meaning one choice for "quality," bull, and antlerless... That increase odds in some areas and decrease odds in others.... But this would weed out the ones who put in for all the choices and don't have a clue where to begin when they get there.... I have drawn a "quality" tag before.... I had only 3 days to hunt before general season opened up.... It was nice but I didn't feel it was quite enough to have a true "quality" hunt with the tag at hand.... 3 years later my Dad drew the same "quality" tag and had one day to hunt with 6 or 7 other tag holders out there... Not even close to a "quality" experience if you ask me.... You figure you wait long enough to draw the tag and scout like crazy when you do... To get one to 3 days to hunt before general season opens and all your hard work of patterning and knowing non-pressured habits/bedding/feeding areas and such to be out the window within 24 hours..... Kinda bs imo..... You should get at least five days with just the other tag holders before general opener....

kirkl · « **Reply #34 on:** January 23, 2012, 02:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Kowsrule30 on January 23, 2012, 01:38:18 PM

I don't think much more could be changed and it would never be liked by all or most.... What I would like changed.... One choice for every category... Meaning one choice for "quality," bull, and antlerless... That increase odds in some areas and decrease odds in others.... But this would weed out the ones who put in for all the choices and don't have a clue where to begin when they get there.... I have drawn a "quality" tag before.... I had only 3 days to hunt before general season opened up.... It was nice but I didn't feel it was quite enough to have a true "quality" hunt with the tag at hand.... 3 years later my Dad drew the same "quality" tag and had one day to hunt with 6 or 7 other tag holders out there... Not even close to a "quality" experience if you ask me.... You figure you wait long enough to draw the tag and scout like crazy when you do... To get one to 3 days to hunt before general season opens and all your hard work of patterning and knowing non-pressured habits/bedding/feeding areas and such to be out the window within 24 hours..... Kinda bs imo..... You should get at least five days with just the other tag holders before general opener....

Modern rifle you get the monday-friday with just the tag holders before general starts on a saturday.

Kowsrule30 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 23, 2012, 02:14:02 PM »

Not muzzy hunters.... These tags were muzzy tags....

bobcat · « **Reply #36 on:** January 23, 2012, 02:19:01 PM »

The muzzleloader permits change each year, just due to which day October 1st falls on. This year general elk muzzleloader season will start October 6th (probably) which will give quality bull permit holders five days to hunt before the crowds show up.

Last year (2011) was a bad year to draw a muzzleloader permit because the general season and the permit season was the same day (Oct 1).

Kowsrule30 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 23, 2012, 02:49:45 PM »

Quote from: bobcat on January 23, 2012, 02:19:01 PM

The muzzleloader permits change each year, just due to which day October 1st falls on. This year general elk muzzleloader season will start October 6th (probably) which will give quality bull permit holders five days to hunt before the crowds show up.

Last year (2011) was a bad year to draw a muzzleloader permit because the general season and the permit season was the same day (Oct 1).

This is exactly why I think it's total bs..... It's never been that way for any other user group... This is why I ghost pointed last year.... No way in hell am I going in to a "quality" tag hunt with one day or less to hunt before general.... My Dad didn't even think about that.... He really regrets it..... He did eventually fill the tag with a rag six that we never saw before... Not the 390" monster we scouted all summer up until the day of the opener to be chased out by spike and cow hunters.....

King Krok · « **Reply #38 on:** January 23, 2012, 06:49:37 PM »

I have max points myself, l live on the wetside and choose to not to hunt elk, the frustrating thing for me will be when the state allows everybody that hunts elk. They won't have to choose between east or west, this is just going to add that many more people to the mix and decrease our odds at drawing. So now we can all expect to wait longer. Once I draw my quality hunt for this state I am going elsewhere.

elksnout · « **Reply #39 on:** January 23, 2012, 07:52:41 PM »

I look at this differently I guess. To me a Quality hunt is limited access by permit holders only. The east side tags get what?? A whole three days before the masses start? Not even that if you figure guys show up early setting up camp. Those tags should get a week for themselves. Hell, they earned it. Same goes for those St. Helens permits. Close and lock those damn gates and give the permit boys a key for their hunt. Too much traffic by those who do not have tags. There's no quality in those hunts. What a freakin joke.

benhuntin · « **Reply #40 on:** January 23, 2012, 07:57:48 PM »

Quote from: Kowsrule30 on January 23, 2012, 02:49:45 PM

Quote from: bobcat on January 23, 2012, 02:19:01 PM
The muzzleloader permits change each year, just due to which day October 1st falls on. This year general elk muzzleloader season will start October 6th (probably) which will give quality bull permit holders five days to hunt before the crowds show up.

Last year (2011) was a bad year to draw a muzzleloader permit because the general season and the permit season was the same day (Oct 1).

This is exactly why I think it's total bs..... It's never been that way for any other user group... This is why I ghost pointed last year.... No way in hell am I going in to a "quality" tag hunt with one day or less to hunt before general.... My Dad didn't even think about that.... He really regrets it..... He did eventually fill the tag with a rag six that we never saw before... Not the 390" monster we scouted all summer up until the day of the opener to be chased out by spike and cow hunters.....

My brother had the obsevatory bull tag muzzle and there were guys everywhere but we still were able to work our way threw them and it turned ok Pretty good.

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