End of salmon fishing eventually???

[PlateauNDN]

Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason.

I wouldn't say that.  But they are using a VERY effective, non-selective harvest method.  When using any highly effective method it only takes a small pin hole of any population to make a huge impact.  Could you imagine how much worse it would be if non-tribal fisherman could use mono gillnets?  The 50% of the catch doesn't even bug me, nor does using gillnets in open water.  I just don't see the netting of river mouths with modern nets as doing anything good.  It wouldn't bother me at all if the indians made nets out of cedar fibers like they did years ago and netted a few times a season for the traditional aspect.

There are things that we agree on and no, I'm not saying Tribal Members that fish in this method are completely without blame, I was just pointing out to h&f that we are not the entire problem.  To say it's just the "indians", blame them all, it's all their fault is absurd and narrow-minded. 

[jackmaster]

my honest opinion and i know i am gonna catch crap for this but oh well, my stance is, shut down all commercial fishing, including out in the ocean i mean shut it all down for everything, and shut down all native nets, no one family needs that much salmon in a year especially when i see native nets come out of the water and then those same natives are at the local ampm selling their catch right out of their totes, if anyone wants fish or shellfish or whatever else commercial and natives catch, then go catch it youself or do without, it wouldnt break my heart because i know how to fish and gather shellfish, crab or what have ya, i really dont care if you cant fend for yourself and dont know how to fish, not my problem, go learn just like i did, but to me that is the ONLY way to fix are fisheries, not by putn more regs and jackn up prices....

[WSU]

Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason.

I wouldn't say that.  But they are using a VERY effective, non-selective harvest method.  When using any highly effective method it only takes a small pin hole of any population to make a huge impact.  Could you imagine how much worse it would be if non-tribal fisherman could use mono gillnets?  The 50% of the catch doesn't even bug me, nor does using gillnets in open water.  I just don't see the netting of river mouths with modern nets as doing anything good.  It wouldn't bother me at all if the indians made nets out of cedar fibers like they did years ago and netted a few times a season for the traditional aspect.

Why is netting in the open ocean better?  Common knowledge seems to indicate that it is worse.  Alaska and Canada already net a ton of our Washington fish without any idea of where those fish are headed.  Way over half of the entire run in many rivers.  At least the nets in rivers know what river's fish they are catching.  It makes way more sense to do away with ocean netting and do all netting in terminal areas.  At least then we would know what in the hell we are catching...

[Dhoey07]

my honest opinion and i know i am gonna catch crap for this but oh well, my stance is, shut down all commercial fishing, including out in the ocean i mean shut it all down for everything, and shut down all native nets, no one family needs that much salmon in a year especially when i see native nets come out of the water and then those same natives are at the local ampm selling their catch right out of their totes, if anyone wants fish or shellfish or whatever else commercial and natives catch, then go catch it youself or do without, it wouldnt break my heart because i know how to fish and gather shellfish, crab or what have ya, i really dont care if you cant fend for yourself and dont know how to fish, not my problem, go learn just like i did, but to me that is the ONLY way to fix are fisheries, not by putn more regs and jackn up prices....

The only people you would catch flack from are natives and commercial guys. Unfortunately the are both special interest groups and we know how they are treated in politics. If a fish is endangered or protected they shouldn't be netted at all!

[FC]

my honest opinion and i know i am gonna catch crap for this but oh well, my stance is, shut down all commercial fishing, including out in the ocean i mean shut it all down for everything, and shut down all native nets, no one family needs that much salmon in a year especially when i see native nets come out of the water and then those same natives are at the local ampm selling their catch right out of their totes, if anyone wants fish or shellfish or whatever else commercial and natives catch, then go catch it youself or do without, it wouldnt break my heart because i know how to fish and gather shellfish, crab or what have ya, i really dont care if you cant fend for yourself and dont know how to fish, not my problem, go learn just like i did, but to me that is the ONLY way to fix are fisheries, not by putn more regs and jackn up prices....

I completely agree, all commercial fishing should be shut down.

[jackmaster]

good i am glad that some agree, i didnt expect it, whatever happened to eat what ya catch, i get tired of the natives thrown whole salmon away just so they can get the roe, and i aint just singling out natives white people do the same damn thing, i guess it all comes down to big business, department of fisheries really dont give a crap if commercial guys or the tribes are decimating the fish because they supply big dollars to who the hell ever, but if you or i went out and caught one salmon over are limit or a trout that is a 1/8 in undesize then we get the book thrown at us.... some crap just dont make sense, we simple folk can see clearly what needs to be done, but the powers that be are blind to common sense

[JimmyHoffa]

Why is netting in the open ocean better?  Common knowledge seems to indicate that it is worse.  Alaska and Canada already net a ton of our Washington fish without any idea of where those fish are headed.  Way over half of the entire run in many rivers.  At least the nets in rivers know what river's fish they are catching.  It makes way more sense to do away with ocean netting and do all netting in terminal areas.  At least then we would know what in the hell we are catching...

I should be more specific, I was referring to the little gillnetter boats the tribes use along Hood Canal and the Strait...not all nets in general.  As far as I know the indians are the only ones allowed to use gill nets across rivers, but indians and commercials are allowed to use them in the ocean.  If they got rid of ocean nets for commercials, then I'd even suggest getting rid of the ocean nets for indians.  In one of these threads, someone said they can only have a net halfway across a river.  Well, I need to take a camera more often because I've seen nets strung completely across rivers, usually with more nets behind them in case of jumpers.  I've had to row over said nets because there wasn't any way to go around them.  They essentially make a barrier to anything trying to traverse---might as well just have a dam.  And just because they target one specific-time run, they are also actually catching fish from different times hatches.  Not all salmon/steelhead arrive at one time, some come really early and some late similar to a bell curve.  Just overlap all the different bell curves and that's what's being caught.
And I do agree with you about the netting in general in the ocean and how much it takes, I just wouldn't agree with taking nets away from the indians and letting the commercials continue to use them.
Right now the Elwha has a big fish trap set up across the river, where the biologists can go look at and observe fish returning to get data and then release fish unharmed to continue upstream.  The Colvilles are using purse seine nets and are able to release certain fish unharmed.

[singleshot12]

my honest opinion and i know i am gonna catch crap for this but oh well, my stance is, shut down all commercial fishing, including out in the ocean i mean shut it all down for everything, and shut down all native nets, no one family needs that much salmon in a year especially when i see native nets come out of the water and then those same natives are at the local ampm selling their catch right out of their totes, if anyone wants fish or shellfish or whatever else commercial and natives catch, then go catch it youself or do without, it wouldnt break my heart because i know how to fish and gather shellfish, crab or what have ya, i really dont care if you cant fend for yourself and dont know how to fish, not my problem, go learn just like i did, but to me that is the ONLY way to fix are fisheries, not by putn more regs and jackn up prices....

The only people you would catch flack from are natives and commercial guys. Unfortunately the are both special interest groups and we know how they are treated in politics. If a fish is endangered or protected they shouldn't be netted at all!

100% agree!   They put an end to market hunting years ago due to the rapid decline of critters. Salmon should of been treated the same.

[singleshot12]

good i am glad that some agree, i didnt expect it, whatever happened to eat what ya catch, i get tired of the natives thrown whole salmon away just so they can get the roe, and i aint just singling out natives white people do the same damn thing, i guess it all comes down to big business, department of fisheries really dont give a crap if commercial guys or the tribes are decimating the fish because they supply big dollars to who the hell ever, but if you or i went out and caught one salmon over are limit or a trout that is a 1/8 in undesize then we get the book thrown at us.... some crap just dont make sense, we simple folk can see clearly what needs to be done, but the powers that be are blind to common sense

Yeah that too!

[RG]

Clearly, there is a lot of money in the commercial fish market.  If you don't think so then count how many grocery stores there are in Washington State, then count how many pounds of salmon is in each store at any given moment of any given day, then multiply that by the price per pound they are charging.  That doesn't include all the restaurants or seafood markets or whatever else.  Then multiply that number by 50 states then by all the countries in the world where you can buy salmon.  Where does that fish come from?  Are those people who are in that industry, and, who are influenced by that industry in terms of economic or political contributions, going to make any significant moves to limit the harvest?  They talk and they study and they write stuff down for others to read and it's all a big stall tactic because the nets are still there scooping up as much as possible.  When I was a kid you couldn't keep the bottom fish, cod, and rock fish off of your line when you salmon fished.  Where did they go?  There are  only x number of fish in the water each year.  A lot of people want to catch all x if they can because they want all the money today and who cares about tomorrow because there have always been salmon so there always will be.  Isn't that true?  I don't think tribal or non-tribal is really the issue.  We see tribal fishing locally so it's the thing we talk about, and based upon my experience, there is abuse there.  What we don't see is all the others between here and Alaska, both American and foreign, that run the big processing boats.  There's abuse there too.  Nobody is willing to take on the big interests directly so it just continues.  The newspapers refuse to print it and news people refuse to report it because it's not politically correct for some reason.  I also know for a fact that WDFW and other state enforcement is not going ever be able to solve the problem for reasons of both manpower and politics.  Oh well, at least we still have hatcheries....  Sorry for the soapbox speech.

[runamuk]

http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/19044543/article-Yukon-River-salmon-run-goes-from-bad-to-worse?instance=home_news_window_left_top_3

more info

[teal101]

I agree, shut the commercial fishery down.  It's asinine to have a commercial fishery on an ESA listed species

[HuntandFish]

Teal 101-

This state has stopped nearly all harmful practices as far as law is concerned. A few people not following the law is to small of a pinhole in the bucket to be bringing into a debate like this in my own opinion. Large buffers along creeks are required for logging both private and public. Residential and commercial land development is doing more good then harm for the fish populations, and roads in general do nothing to the habitat of fish, it is obvious that this study is simply targeting the logging industry, I would assume anyway. Please be very wary of studies you read, just because a scientist or someone that is "educated" put together a study it does not mean it is correct, in fact in allot of cases they are just plain wrong.  It is fairly easy to look up studies to support both sides of any argument, what does that tell you? Just remember everyone has to justify there jobs and a few of them have to justify government grants and money. This society is study crazy.

I agree with you that there are still some things that need to be addressed and should be, but we have to change the mentality in this state/country that we have to regulate ourselves more to compensate for the ignorance and self entitlement of others!

And yes the Elwha dam is just another example of this state's unwillingness to stand up to indians and do what is right.

This is just my two cents!
H&F

Land development is doing more good than harm?  How in any way shape or form is changing natural habitat better than leaving natural habitat?  That is nearly the same argument that got the hatcheries implemented.  The U.S. thought they could scientifically control and produce the fish better than millions of years of evolution in nature could.  It's asinine.  Just because a development is required to abide by a setback and implement retaining ponds to attempt counteracting their input does not mean that it is helping.  It is merely a bandaid to the issue caused by the development.  If you think roads do nothing you're out of your mind.  You have noise pollution, air pollution, ground pollution, trash, sediment kicked up, and a compact channel for runoff.  We've proven over and over again we can not manage the fish better than nature yet still try to do it.  There are a lot of things the state needs to fix with salmon management, hatcheries being the big black eye in the program right now.

You can't stop development it is what runs the economy, and for all intents and purposes Washington (I can't speak for other states) does a great job of mitigating the impact of development, it costs me more then I would like to do business but it is worth it. The type of water control devices and erosion control that are implemented are not a bandaid they are a permanent mitigation to the disturbance. The concept behind these devices is to let water enter the waterways naturally or as close to as possible. After that you have set backs and buffers, because a stream is only effect by its immediate surroundings as far as shade and ecosystem are concerned. I suppose I should clarify roads do so little to a river environment it would be unmeasurable. And noise pollution is a crazy concept since sound waves do not enter water unless transferred by direct contact? Air pollution is also grasping at straws? Trash I will give you that one, but we are talking about salmon reproducing and thriving, don't think a McDonald's wrapper will effect this? Sediment that may be produced during a heavy rain fall event by concentrated flows running down the road are in almost all cases naturally mitigated by the natural vegetation that is left as a buffer (set back) between the road and the river, this is the main reason why these buffers are there, and they work very effectively.

I agree with you that we cannot manage fish better then nature, we pay for way to many biologists to blow smoke up our *ss and justify their jobs. All we can do is mitigate our development and let nature take its course. And to get back to my original point I believe that ONE of the major issues that needs to be addressed is netting.

Not trying to fight with you Teal, I respect the fact you want to save these fish like I do.

H&F

[HuntandFish]

Teal 101-

This state has stopped nearly all harmful practices as far as law is concerned. A few people not following the law is to small of a pinhole in the bucket to be bringing into a debate like this in my own opinion. Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason. Large buffers along creeks are required for logging both private and public. Residential and commercial land development is doing more good then harm for the fish populations, and roads in general do nothing to the habitat of fish, it is obvious that this study is simply targeting the logging industry, I would assume anyway. Wow, residential and commercial land development is better for the fish, ok, if you say so. Please be very wary of studies you read, just because a scientist or someone that is "educated" put together a study it does not mean it is correct, in fact in allot of cases they are just plain wrong.  It is fairly easy to look up studies to support both sides of any argument, what does that tell you? Just remember everyone has to justify there jobs and a few of them have to justify government grants and money. This society is study crazy. We can agree on this one.

I agree with you that there are still some things that need to be addressed and should be, but we have to change the mentality in this state/country that we have to regulate ourselves more to compensate for the ignorance and self entitlement of others!

And yes the Elwha dam is just another example of this state's unwillingness to stand up to indians and do what is right. So in your opinion what is right?  Leaving the dams in place or removing them and restoring an ecosystem that was there way before the dams were ever put in place?  I bet you were against the closure of the port idea when it came to town because the "Indian" skeletal remains that numbered well over thousands of full skeletals and partials were not worth the effort and should've just been removed and dumped like trash just like the previous excavations did in the past.  Their families and ancestors were there first for many generations but yet you probably didn't even care to consider that, they were probably just in your way and who cares right?

This is just my two cents!
H&F

Wow is all I can say.

Yes I do beileive tribal netters have a larger part to do with the fish decline then the other issues that also need to be adderessed.

I don't know why you are bringing up other subjects, but I do support anyone taking reasonable time to remove there ancestors remains, it would be a matter of respect. I didn't here about the port stoppage so cannot comment on that, was it recent? What I meant on the damn comment is that we are installing fish hatcheries so the tribal indians will have fish...

[HuntandFish]

Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason.

I wouldn't say that.  But they are using a VERY effective, non-selective harvest method.  When using any highly effective method it only takes a small pin hole of any population to make a huge impact.  Could you imagine how much worse it would be if non-tribal fisherman could use mono gillnets?  The 50% of the catch doesn't even bug me, nor does using gillnets in open water.  I just don't see the netting of river mouths with modern nets as doing anything good.  It wouldn't bother me at all if the indians made nets out of cedar fibers like they did years ago and netted a few times a season for the traditional aspect.

I couldn't agree with you more JimmyHoffa!