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Author Topic: Study on Coho mortality  (Read 3861 times)

Offline Stein

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2020, 10:09:59 AM »
Yeah, the millions of gallons of raw sewage Seattle dumps in probably don't have any impact.  I'm surprised it's not limited to boat trailer tires.

The coho never show up in Puget Sound, long before they would be able to get killed by the tires.  We would also see a bunch of floating fish and the toxin would be building up in the seals and kill them too.

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2020, 03:58:48 PM »
Yeah, the millions of gallons of raw sewage Seattle dumps in probably don't have any impact.  I'm surprised it's not limited to boat trailer tires.

The coho never show up in Puget Sound, long before they would be able to get killed by the tires.  We would also see a bunch of floating fish and the toxin would be building up in the seals and kill them too.

 Well thankfully the area orcas are safe, since they only eat chinook! :tup:
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Offline Stein

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2020, 04:09:01 PM »
If you run the math, it's fairly comical.  Puget Sound coho return was 670,000 last year.  If tires are killing 90%, then 670k/.1= a real return of 6.7 million before the tires killed them all upon entering the sound and rivers.  I would think we would be able to see 6 million dead fish floating around somewhere.  I would think the ocean fishermen would also notice if 6-7 million coho were returning.

You can do the same math for the Columbia, they would need a couple million to enter to kill 90% and still have the returns they do.

Sounds like someone had some fun with a chunk of tire and a pet store aquarium and then made a rather big jump to the Pacific Ocean.

I'm not saying tires in the rivers and oceans are a good thing, I'm just highly doubtful it's killing 90% of the salmon that return.  I think they are off by at least two orders of magnitude which if true is extremely shameful for a published paper.

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2020, 04:15:14 PM »
The article said it requires the preservative chemical and Ozone to produce the toxin.  At first, I was thinking "oh, ozone...is this going to be focused on fossil fuels?", so looked up ozone production and saw that electrics produce double the ozone as internal combustion.   :o  I was surprised.

Offline skidynastar33

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2020, 04:19:13 PM »
If you run the math, it's fairly comical.  Puget Sound coho return was 670,000 last year.  If tires are killing 90%, then 670k/.1= a real return of 6.7 million before the tires killed them all upon entering the sound and rivers.  I would think we would be able to see 6 million dead fish floating around somewhere.  I would think the ocean fishermen would also notice if 6-7 million coho were returning.

You can do the same math for the Columbia, they would need a couple million to enter to kill 90% and still have the returns they do.


Itís not 90% of the coho run. Itís specifically the small creeks that are more near roads. They talk about a creek in west Seattle. The bigger rivers have enough fresh clean water from the mountains to not be as effected. But small creeks off the river could be.
Sounds like someone had some fun with a chunk of tire and a pet store aquarium and then made a rather big jump to the Pacific Ocean.

I'm not saying tires in the rivers and oceans are a good thing, I'm just highly doubtful it's killing 90% of the salmon that return.  I think they are off by at least two orders of magnitude which if true is extremely shameful for a published paper.

Offline skidynastar33

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2020, 04:22:55 PM »
You can argue timing all you want. To me the real question is, why does this chemical only kill Coho? Why is there not a major fish kill every fall, of every species when the fall rains do come?
I will use Lake Washington as an example. That body of water probably recieves about as much roadway runoff as any, probably more. But yet, every fall at the start of the rainy season, we never see a major fish kill. If it were to happen, it would be all you would see on local news. KING, KIRO and KOMO would be showing it to you every night, as an example why we need to submit to climate change. Now do I think this chemical is harmful? No doubt it is, I just wish news like this was not treated as the next dooms day crisis we need to fix right now. Or it is death to all of us. This chemical also absolves all parties of there responsibility in the salmon solution, its now Les Schwab's fault. :twocents:

Maybe the study was only specific to coho, it may kill other fish as well but they were specifically studying coho in the study. Also the study seems specific to smaller creeks. Other salmon species may not be present in these creeks. Also seems like the first big rains will wash a lot of the tire particles to the creeks. That usually times with the coho run. Kings donít really spawn in smaller creeks. Chum are later after the rains abs first run offs.

Offline NRA4LIFE

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2020, 04:45:56 PM »
Shhhh, don't tell Dimslee.  I can only imagine the knee-jerk reactions surrounding this revelation.
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Offline Alchase

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2020, 05:09:24 PM »
The only ďmass kill of salmon I have seen in the water,Ē was fishing the two day sockeye run on Lake Washington. Hundreds of floaters that were hooked and got loose.
You could easily limit just picking up the bright and shiny floaters.

Off the water, tons of net caught Chum dumped on the side of the Puyallup after been stripped of their eggs, and just left to rot.

Tons of net caught Steelhead and Salmon dumped next to the Skokomish River. My Dad and I came a crossed this a few times. Tried to report it, WDFW had no interest.
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Offline WSU

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2020, 10:07:02 AM »
I've seen reports over the past few years that indicate coho mysteriously die pre-spawn in PS streams and creeks.  The reports had narrowed it down to run off after rains but hadn't pinpointed what was in the runoff that killed them.  I would buy that heightened levels of whatever the pollutant is following the first big rain of the year could be the cause.  If it's tire dust, it's had a lot of dry months in a row to build up. 

I could believe a pretty big number.  Growing up I used to see salmon regularly in the creeks that fed into the Sammamish Slough.  As development occurred they faded away and as far as I know are gone now.  That's one small watershed that undoubtedly held quite a few salmon.  Extrapolate that basin wide and I'm sure the numbers could be staggering.

Offline Stein

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2020, 10:18:00 AM »
The coho are making it to the hatchery though aren't they?  If 90% were dying before they got to the hatchery, the run numbers would be adjusted down for sure as that is one of the ways they measure run size I believe.

The hatchery also uses creek or river water to raise the fry and they aren't dying.  It also doesn't seem to impact the eggs before hatching.  Or trout or any of the other fish in the river that don't migrate out.

I would love to find the easy button and it's certainly possible there is something big here, it just sounds like there are a bunch of questions around this.

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »
Perhaps we will never know as a lot of hatcheries are on the chopping block if Inslee proceeds with the proposals.

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2020, 10:39:39 AM »
Come on folks, you've got to read just a bit more closely..."takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."  That's not the entire PS coho return, not the hatcheries, not the Green or Puyallup or Sky or Snoq...none of which have urban spawning areas.  This is talking about Thornton Creek, Pipers Creek, and some of the other tiny little creeks that flow into Lake Washington or the Sound with spawning gravel that runs through truly urban areas.  You'd never see the floaters because you (and I) aren't trying to fish tiny little creeks alongside the road in Ballard.

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2020, 10:42:14 AM »
I've seen reports over the past few years that indicate coho mysteriously die pre-spawn in PS streams and creeks.  The reports had narrowed it down to run off after rains but hadn't pinpointed what was in the runoff that killed them.  I would buy that heightened levels of whatever the pollutant is following the first big rain of the year could be the cause.  If it's tire dust, it's had a lot of dry months in a row to build up. 

I could believe a pretty big number.  Growing up I used to see salmon regularly in the creeks that fed into the Sammamish Slough.  As development occurred they faded away and as far as I know are gone now.  That's one small watershed that undoubtedly held quite a few salmon.  Extrapolate that basin wide and I'm sure the numbers could be staggering.
:yeah:

I live in Normandy Park and we have small streams that dump into the sound.  Every year they plant fingerlings in walker and miller creek, every year coho salmon return and flop around in the creeks and die before they spawn.  There is a ton of small stream habitat that could be reproducing salmon if they could actually spawn.
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Offline WSU

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2020, 10:43:55 AM »
It's in the article and the studies linked in the articles.  The deaths are occurring in small, urban streams and were found to kill both wild and hatchery fish.  The deaths only appear to occur in well developed areas and did not appear in areas with less than 10% developed land cover. 

This really does seem to make sense.  Runs are continually getting worse and worse despite less fishing.  As development grows, more of these environmental factors come into play. 

Folks ought to read the studies before disputing them. 

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Study on Coho mortality
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2020, 11:49:47 AM »
They can do all the studies they want like the cougar studies abut if nothing ever comes of it then it's wasted money.

 


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