Blues Elk Downward Spiral

[2MANY]

A little in-site on the Blues problem.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/may/05/no-immediate-help-in-sight-for-elk-in-the-blue-mou/

[Gettin Birdie]

They've known this for years, they just won't act on it.  I was in the hallway waiting to speak with Wik, when I worked out of that office and overheard him talking with someone and they were discussing the recent meeting in Dayton on the elk management.  Wik basically just blew off all those people and said they just don't understand it, but bottom line, it came down to "Inslee being a cougar lover" direct quote I heard.  Wik won't do a damn thing either, he is part of the problem and won't fight for the proper management, he is a coward, and just collects a paycheck.  This was circa 2018, also the previous year I had a dayton muzzy deer tag and saw 4 lions within a square mile, one of the other hunters (25 tags) was elk calling for fun, and 3  lions came in, he shot one.  It's 100% solvable and fixable, but the problem is politics and people who don't listen to logical, sound scientific reasoning.   

[Stein]

WDFW pretty much has one tool at their disposal - tag numbers.  They will issue fewer tags until they get to 1 and then leave it there so 10,000 people buy their quality draw application.

The state and tribes won't cooperate in any meaningful and transparent way, the state certainly won't entertain increasing the killing of predators and there is no money for research or habitat improvement so there's only one lever left in the system.  Unfortunately it's the lever that has the least impact when pulled.

[snake]

Yes, lots of options to start improving elk numbers immediately.

[2MANY]

So sad.
It has went down the crapper since the previous manager that built the Blues machine retired.

The new managers shouldn't even be called managers.
 

[Pegasus]

Declare a wildlife emergency, bring back the hounds and the problem is fixed.

[BlackRiverTaxidermy]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

[Caseyd]

Declare a wildlife emergency, bring back the hounds and the problem is fixed.

We’d have Chaz/chop or whatever it’s called all over again. It’s insane to think but we’d have rioting over this crap. People love and hold wild animals above human life. Think of that lady that got attacked by a cougar in cle Elum, all the comments are we are encroaching on them.

[2MANY]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

WOW.
Another unmanageable predator.
Subsistence at it's finest.

[Buzzsaw461]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

Yep, it’s very unfortunate that these groups can’t work for the benefit of all. Sorry to say it will probably never happen.

[trophyhunt]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

Yep, it’s very unfortunate that these groups can’t work for the benefit of all. Sorry to say it will probably never happen.

Agree, it will never happen, some are just too arrogant and don't give to F's about the resources.  This is why I've said in the past, open the season up for any elk, any deer, sept- dec, any weapon.  Kill'em all!!  When there is zero left to hunt, MAYBE the tribes will wake the F up and care.  Yes, cut off our nose despite our face.

[hambone]

So the same problem that's been there since the 70s

[blumtnelkndeer]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

Yep, it’s very unfortunate that these groups can’t work for the benefit of all. Sorry to say it will probably never happen.

Agree, it will never happen, some are just too arrogant and don't give to F's about the resources.  This is why I've said in the past, open the season up for any elk, any deer, sept- dec, any weapon.  Kill'em all!!  When there is zero left to hunt, MAYBE the tribes will wake the F up and care.  Yes, cut off our nose despite our face.

  Curious about the guy that killed 18 300" bulls? they always hunt when there is no general season open to the public so there are no people up in the area to see what they are up to. they are bringing in guys from different areas of the country and charging a fair amount of money for them to come shoot a big bull. We have cameras every where up there we will catch them eventually.

[templar021]

OK, if the story about one tribal member killing that many bulls in a herd in crisis is true, than it is  time to use every tool at our disposal to bring  this behavior to the public. It is also time for wdfw to quit referring to the nez perce tribe as partners, cause they arent.

[huntnnw]

that tribal harvest has always been there even when the elk pop was booming. The tribes are shooting bulls and not calves. The cow to calf ratio is alarming

[jackelope]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

https://nwsportsmanmag.com/more-on-elk-calf-woes-in-washingtons-blue-mountains-wdfws-investigations/

Calf survival is a bigger problem.
https://www.union-bulletin.com/sports/wire/monitoring-documents-high-mountain-lion-predation-of-blue-mountains-elk-some-suggest-limiting-hunting/article_cb8af486-6382-11ec-8a0f-57ed06ea672b.html

Tribal hunters have been killing bulls in there for years and years.
*Not saying the excess tribal elk killing is ok. Just saying it's not new and I don't personally think it's the cause of the current problem.

[LDennis24]

that tribal harvest has always been there even when the elk pop was booming. The tribes are shooting bulls and not calves. The cow to calf ratio is alarming

 
They are shooting big bulls from the road. Where are all the spikes? Where are all the cow calf pairs? Where are the bulls in the Watershed? I have had two different groups of guys draw a Watershed tag in the last five years and both were willing to shoot almost any bull that was a six point or better as they have never shot a bull elk before. They went home empty handed. It's a bigger issue than native harvest. If anything I would say native harvest is probably down from where it was ten yrs ago. 

[trophyhunt]

If it was down, it’s only because there are fewer bulls for them to shoot.

[hunter399]

Only if there was a way to get hunters to predator hunt,more than they hunt deer and elk.
Now that would be a solution I could hang my hat on.

[Taco280AI]

Help out if the natives focused on hunting wolves and sea lions... for traditional ceremonial purposes

[nwwanderer]

Know a place with a dozen plus branch antlered bulls about, a couple pushing 400.  Have not seen a cow/calf for weeks and part of the area is open to cow take muzzleloader.  It is way more than predators of any ilk.  These imported beasts are in trouble after 100+ years and the folks that brought them in can not see past their paperwork.

[jackelope]

You guys saw the Blues collared calf study, right? Like 80% of them killed by predators, mostly lions if I remember correctly?
I don’t want to sound like a know it all of biology, but in order to have adults, you have to have babies that turn into adults. If all the babies are getting killed by lions, we’re going to eventually run out of bulls to kill.

9 years ago I had 5 different lions on the same camera in the Blues. That’s not good!

[buckfvr]

Cats are the killing machines but how many of their kills get jacked by bear and wolf ?  Cats, I believe, are killing more and eating less which means they kill even more.

[trophyhunt]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

[pianoman9701]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

It is necessarily predators. Out of 125 calves collared, only 9 survived. 70% of monitored calf mortality is cougar kills. This means less than a 1/3 of  the needed calf survival rate is surviving the first year. That's completely unsustainable. Tags should be severely limited, maybe some of them only to those who fill a cougar tag. Cougar harvest limits need to be doubled.

[Woodchuck]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

Shoot, I saw a cougar a couple weeks back in the middle of a fairly well traveled, paved road, in broad daylight. There is a large working rock pit and several homes very close. They are a massive problem.
What I have seen with my own eyes, in the 21 years I have lived here is sickening. The elk are disappearing amazingly fast. All of my ideas to help would never fly in this state. Sad.

[2MANY]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

[LDennis24]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

[pianoman9701]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

Rabies is always a good choice.

[Timberstalker]

What are "calves?"

[buckfvr]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

Last time I drew a spring bear tag I spotted a big cat working through the edge of a cut.  Grass and brush movement was what gave it away as you had to be on him to see him in his small windows of open view.  Anyway, the cat was only 200 yards away from a cow with a calf that had just got to its feet as I watched.  Cat dropped into the creek bottom and I am most certain it ended up smelling the elk at some point because they were only 100 yards above.  Same cut showed several bear almost each evening.  Silver Creek drainage north of Colville.

[hunter399]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

Last time I drew a spring bear tag I spotted a big cat working through the edge of a cut.  Grass and brush movement was what gave it away as you had to be on him to see him in his small windows of open view.  Anyway, the cat was only 200 yards away from a cow with a calf that had just got to its feet as I watched.  Cat dropped into the creek bottom and I am most certain it ended up smelling the elk at some point because they were only 100 yards above.  Same cut showed several bear almost each evening.  Silver Creek drainage north of Colville.

I do agree that NE WA has a similar problem as the Blues.
They won't raise quotas here,or do the research here to say that's what is happening to our deer and Elk.
It's crazy cause it's Cats or wolf tracks around here.
Different biologists or something.

Alright back to the topic
Blues Elk.

[pianoman9701]

The biologists recommended spring bear because of predation. The flower children on the commission said they didn't care.

[Humptulips]

Commissioners opined that they could just reduce the target numbers for elk. When the elk numbers get to zero they can just change the target number to zero and everything is hunky dory.

[Buzzsaw461]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

[MHWASH]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

 I have elk hunted in the Blues for 20+ years, but have not saw a cougar yet, but when there is snow on the ground, you cannot go anywhere to hunt where there isn't tracks in the snow.
When I say I hunt the Blues, I mean Hunt, not drive around and drink beer like 90% of the hunters down there.

[trophyhunt]

So I’m not the only one!!! Lol.  I know they are there, they must know I’m gonna put a cap in their azz so they hide from me! 

[Stein]

Commissioners opined that they could just reduce the target numbers for elk. When the elk numbers get to zero they can just change the target number to zero and everything is hunky dory.

The only thing that will save the elk is when they realize that other things need to eat them to survive.  Then, everyone will be up in arms and hunting tags will certainly be zero.  As any salmon angler about how that works.

[jackelope]

They make tracks too. I think it was decided at the time with the biologists who did the cat collar study that this guy would have had to travel 10 miles best case scenario to get to this location from where he was possibly collared in the Blues.

[snake]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

Rabies is always a good choice.

pretty sure most already have Rabies.

[Dan-o]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

Rabies is always a good choice.

pretty sure most already have Rabies.

Tough crowd.

[borntoslay]

We saw a big cat working through a  farmers field right by heifercock grade this year. Didn't have permission in his field but after talking to the guy at the last resort he said all the farmers in the bottom want predators shot on sight.  Hindsight 20/20. It was a big cat too. Fat jiggler

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

[dwils233]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

.I'd say the main issue with this idea is the calving study from last year and this year- the issue now is recruitment. We aren't seeing enough calves make it to maturity so what's coming off the top matters less than what's refilling the tank.

[huntnphool]

 What is the downward spiral referring to, class of bulls or herd numbers?

[hunter399]

What is the downward spiral referring to, class of bulls or herd numbers?

I think the whole herd in general.
It's just a number on a computer,who knows what the real numbers are.

[meatwhack]

When you’re seeing cougars there’s way too many of them.

[huntnnw]

everytime I have drawn a tag in the blues I have ran cams and gotten way too many cats on cam and most are in the daylight

[Gettin Birdie]

everytime I have drawn a tag in the blues I have ran cams and gotten way too many cats on cam and most are in the daylight

They are everywhere, day/night don't matter.  On my Dayton muzzy deer hunt, Dad and I couldn't believe how few animals there were, deer and elk, insane. I had a doe running towards me and then up a draw (I was on a finger) barking the alarm.  I was super confused, only 25 tags and hadn't seen any other hunters in the area I was.  Short time later, there came a massive lion, just outside muzzy range, so never got a shot at it.  A mile away, the only other hunter we saw, shot 1 out of 3 with his pistol, calling cow elk for fun, they came in and followed him a bit.