2023 Special Draw Witness Perspective

[BlackRiverTaxidermy]

Well, its over. Washington Special Permit Draw 2023. As you can tell by the heading, I was one of the citizen witnesses this year after being asked if I was interested in doing so. While I consider myself fairly versed in our draw system I was genuinely interested in the process, therefore I accepted.
I need to first start off by saying that I am not advocating for Washington’s draw system, I think there are better systems out there. However with this said, there are some advantages and disadvantages to the system and those ideas may come in the form of comments following this write up.
The main purpose of this post, and also the goal of having citizen witnesses, is to develop transparency for the system as well as sharing the experience. We (witnesses) were advised to essentially 'keep our mouths shut' about dates, times, etc prior to the event; and I learned was good reason for this. Following the draw on the morning of the 14th, I did inquire with the admin of the draw system, if the information could be shared ‘to the masses’ about the process, selection, dates, etc, to which they did give me and the others (total of 4 witnesses) permission to do so.

One of the biggest gripes by people is the timing or not knowing the dates. WDFW did this for a reason. In previous years when they gave a date, the entire system was bogged down by everyone continually checking their profiles throughout the day, which caused vendors and ultimately, the system to crash several times. Therefore, they don’t give a specific date for partially that reason. The other reason is simply quality control and not being able to GIVE a date with corrections that need to be checked on submittals. With all the submittals completed the staff has to go through and weed-out people that were able to submit but are not eligible for reasons such as non-resident, not having a hunter safety card, etc. I was amazed how much time, and how many people are taken off entries for such reasons. The other reason for delay is much like the first, thousands of people log into their accounts just to check, and it causes technical problems. For these reasons it's hard to nail down a date....I as a witness was not even given a definitive day, until the email 48 hours in advance came in advising of the event. 
After talking us through the process we got to witness the drawing for the category of ‘Quality Elk’, which merely was one of the admin pushing a button and the computer making the selections based on squared points in the drawing. The selection was quick, and immediately the results popped up showing the names of the winners, the unit they selected, their points they had, and a few other stats. Everything was explained to us as to what all the numbers were including 1st vs 2nd choice statistics. It was fascinating to know 327 won their first choice and 129 their second choice. I was also surprised at how many selections were applicants with high point numbers. I've had a fair amount of clients draw some coveted tags with only a few points and though I might see quite a few selections in single digit numbers, however I was surprised to see a large majority of winners with upper echelon point numbers. One could argue this is partially because of Washington’s system and the effects of point creep as well.
They did not let us see the remaining of the draw mostly due to time constraints the technology of putting all the results on the computer presentation. We did however have time for questions which were answered appropriately and accurately by staff. A good friend and another member on this forum was also a witness, if he reads this post he may come forward and talk about it too and his question, as I don’t want to step on any toes. I had a host of questions in regard to the actual draw system and why we wouldn’t/couldn’t move to a better system, however something of that length of discussion was not the time to ask during the event, but a follow up email will be sent which they welcomed us to do for any additional inquiries. The other reason for not asking this question is the WDFW members present were more the technical group that monitors the numbers and makes sure applicants are eligible; the were not the people that made the choice of the draw system.
I thought it was a good experience, and even though a large majority of hunters will have a bitter taste in their mouth at seeing ‘Not Selected’, including myself, it was a interesting to see the process and explanation of drawing. No, as I have heard by some, they don’t ‘farm’ the process out to a company, it was done at their offices with, from what I could see, was a comprehensive and defined computer selection system.
Again, without going into depth, I think there are better resident draw systems out there such as Montana or even Idaho. I may get heat for this, but I would really like to see the ability to choose 1 category within a species to apply for vs. all three categories such as 'Quality Bull' 'Bull' and 'Antlerless'. I think it would cut down on the ever-growing points. An advantage, if there is one, is that even someone with a low number of points STILL has a shot at drawing even a coveted tag, which is not the case with most other point-applied systems within other states. Yes, management and the growing anti-hunting board of commissioners is a real problem, but for the most part I was glad to see the system being conducted and have some concrete knowledge vs. a lot of speculation and rabbit-hole conspiracies talked about amongst numerous social media sites. 
I will end this, but here were a few stats/numbers I wrote down while listening.

34,668 applicants
1580   didn’t even make hunt selections!
27 categories for special permits

Congrats to the winners!!
Joel – BRT

[vandeman17]

Thank you for taking the time to post this. Much appreciated

[KFhunter]

Thanks for taking the time to go and witness   


Hearing from folks like you does go a long way with me and others who read what people like you have to say.

So again, thanks for doing that!

[ElkSlayer40]

How do they go about choosing their witnesses every year?

[Mtnwalker]

Great post, thanks for the info. So 456 total quality elk tags by the numbers you gave? Pretty unreal that 8 years ago there was more quality tags than that just in Yakima area archery alone. When people argue about this draw system vs that system, it won't make any difference as long as this is going on...

[Antlershed]

One question I would have, based on the info you just gave, is how is the system letting that many invalid applications in the door in the first place? They have all of the information in the system to do these validations on the front end.

[furbearer365]

I think the gripes from most people stem from their knowledge of other states. Why can others states have a draw and tell you the date without any technical errors??  Why can other states have a system where upper points holders draw first??  All the questions about our state are valid and justified

[GOcougsHunter]

Great post and good insight into the process.

[2MANY]

Joel is a great person and I appreciate him taking the time out of his very busy days.

[BUTTER]

I think the gripes people are having is why is it? We have our own residents. Some of them with 20 bullpoints 25 quality bullpoints. Some of them with 20 cow points that just cannot draw a tag and you have others that draw multiple times in the continuous category. This is a failed system that is not working and isn't right to the people that have that kind of points and cannot draw. We have to have a cap

[BlackRiverTaxidermy]

One question I would have, based on the info you just gave, is how is the system letting that many invalid applications in the door in the first place? They have all of the information in the system to do these validations on the front end.

Again, I'm not expert on this, but my info may have led you to believe there were people that were getting in left and right with invalid apps....that wasnt the case. I believe they have to check applications and people out to make sure they meet parameters. Your right in the fact that most of the info is up front and valid, HOWEVER, there are always people in EVERY state that get into draws that either just moved, have an invalid hunters ed card, etc. From what I understood they check most people to make sure this isn't the case, something I think everyone would appreciate, especially if a guy got drawn for an OIL tag and he no longer lived here. Having hunted in most Westen states and a plethora of clients that do as well I've heard lots of stories of people 'sneaking in' resident draw apps. Again, I appreciate they are doing their best to keep it valid in this aspect.

[Bushcraft]

Wait...You were there as a citizen "witness", but only got to see one draw?

So much for transparency.    Is it any wonder why hunters and anglers have trust issues with the Dept.?

[Rainier10]

Thanks for the post and details.

[trophyhunt]

I’m not a fan of the new email they sent out, my family waits to see results when we get home from work and check as a group. The wife opened the email not realizing it told her about the results.  Now we know not to open emails next time.

[Maverick]

I've never thought the multiple applications for each species was a good idea because you're right it creates an even worse point creep. They claimed it would give more opportunity. I think it's just an easy way for them to collect more revenue. 1 person buying apps for quality bull, bull, and antlerless will spend more money than a person buying just one elk application. 

[Antlershed]

One question I would have, based on the info you just gave, is how is the system letting that many invalid applications in the door in the first place? They have all of the information in the system to do these validations on the front end.

Again, I'm not expert on this, but my info may have led you to believe there were people that were getting in left and right with invalid apps....that wasnt the case. I believe they have to check applications and people out to make sure they meet parameters. Your right in the fact that most of the info is up front and valid, HOWEVER, there are always people in EVERY state that get into draws that either just moved, have an invalid hunters ed card, etc. From what I understood they check most people to make sure this isn't the case, something I think everyone would appreciate, especially if a guy got drawn for an OIL tag and he no longer lived here. Having hunted in most Westen states and a plethora of clients that do as well I've heard lots of stories of people 'sneaking in' resident draw apps. Again, I appreciate they are doing their best to keep it valid in this aspect.

Thanks Joel, appreciate the extra insight, and do appreciate that they do check for things like that.

[Mulie87]

Thanks for the post and insight.

[Antlershed]

I think the gripes people are having is why is it? We have our own residents. Some of them with 20 bullpoints 25 quality bullpoints. Some of them with 20 cow points that just cannot draw a tag and you have others that draw multiple times in the continuous category. This is a failed system that is not working and isn't right to the people that have that kind of points and cannot draw. We have to have a cap

Nature of a bonus point system.

I didn’t draw bull elk with 26 points this year, nor did I draw quality deer with 22.

I’d be in favor of ditching points altogether.

[HUNT JR]

The best thing we could do would be to lower the amount of choices everyone gets to 1 for all species. Would make people really focus on what units they actually want to hunt.

[Sneaky Squirrel]

I've never thought the multiple applications for each species was a good idea because you're right it creates an even worse point creep. They claimed it would give more opportunity. I think it's just an easy way for them to collect more revenue. 1 person buying apps for quality bull, bull, and antlerless will spend more money than a person buying just one elk application.

I bet the revenue stream isn't as big as what most people think. In Oregon, the app fee basically covers there cost to perform the draw. WA quality is a little more so i do figure they are putting some $ in there pocket.

Thanks for the report on how they do the draw.

Seems like an easy way to increase odds is do it similar to Idaho - Pick Deer and Elk or one of the OIL's. If you pick Deer and Elk, make it only one app. You choose what you would like to get out of it, more of a meat hunt(cows which should be easier to draw) or a quality experience. If drawn, you can't apply for tags the next year or two. That way we can get some of the lucky guys out of the draw....

[benhuntin]

I think you did a great job on quality elk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobcat]

Should only be 5 categories like it used to be- deer, elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat. That's it.

[James]

I think Thomas Sowell has some wise words on the matter of "type of draw system":

“There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.”

[fishngamereaper]

Should only be 5 categories like it used to be- deer, elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat. That's it.

 
Seems this year was feast or famine...
Also presents more issues and work for wdfw having to deal with a ton of returned tags because of multi tag same species issues...

[GOcougsHunter]

Should only be 5 categories like it used to be- deer, elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat. That's it.

  100% agree.  My son and I put in for a total of 28 categories.  It used to be more when he was youth.

[vandeman17]

5 would be fine with me but like others said, I would also be fine going as far as Idaho does and saying it is either deer and elk or OIL in a given year.

[idahohuntr]

5 would be fine with me but like others said, I would also be fine going as far as Idaho does and saying it is either deer and elk or OIL in a given year.

Same.

But any change is just a game of trade-offs and it's just too easy for the Department to dismiss changes because there will never be consensus.

Per this witness and others - I've never had any real criticism of the speed or diligence of WDFW in doing the draw.  I will also say...witnesses watching someone push a button and display results is not any real kind of transparency or accountability when it comes to draw results...4 or 5 independent IT experts reviewing all data/software/programs would be more legitimate.  I could run a very illegitimate draw and invite 5 strangers into the room and say...look, I'm pushing the button...there's the results...

But to be clear - I have no doubts its a legitimate draw.

[Antlershed]

5 would be fine with me but like others said, I would also be fine going as far as Idaho does and saying it is either deer and elk or OIL in a given year.

Same.

But any change is just a game of trade-offs and it's just too easy for the Department to dismiss changes because there will never be consensus.

Per this witness and others - I've never had any real criticism of the speed or diligence of WDFW in doing the draw.  I will also say...witnesses watching someone push a button and display results is not any real kind of transparency or accountability when it comes to draw results...4 or 5 independent IT experts reviewing all data/software/programs would be more legitimate.  I could run a very illegitimate draw and invite 5 strangers into the room and say...look, I'm pushing the button...there's the results...

But to be clear - I have no doubts its a legitimate draw.

[vandeman17]

5 would be fine with me but like others said, I would also be fine going as far as Idaho does and saying it is either deer and elk or OIL in a given year.

Same.

But any change is just a game of trade-offs and it's just too easy for the Department to dismiss changes because there will never be consensus.

Per this witness and others - I've never had any real criticism of the speed or diligence of WDFW in doing the draw.  I will also say...witnesses watching someone push a button and display results is not any real kind of transparency or accountability when it comes to draw results...4 or 5 independent IT experts reviewing all data/software/programs would be more legitimate.  I could run a very illegitimate draw and invite 5 strangers into the room and say...look, I'm pushing the button...there's the results...

But to be clear - I have no doubts its a legitimate draw.

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

[James]

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

Hell, I would be willing to pay double, triple, and probably even much higher on ALL license fees if I thought it would fix WDFW and our fish/game woes.

[guardian]

Thanks for the info Joel. Hey did you draw any tags this year? Thanks again..

[stw]

The draw needs to go back to the 90s way if you drew a tag you had to wait 4 years to put back in for that tag but the years you couldn't put in you could buy your points.

[RockChuck]

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

Hell, I would be willing to pay double, triple, and probably even much higher on ALL license fees if I thought it would fix WDFW and our fish/game woes.

Please don’t tell wdfw this!! They charge enough already!

[Rainier10]

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

Hell, I would be willing to pay double, triple, and probably even much higher on ALL license fees if I thought it would fix WDFW and our fish/game woes.

For those of us willing to pay extra to make they WDFW better go to this website and click on associate membership for $100. From there you can click the number up from 100 to 200 or 300 or whatever you are willing to donate so this group can fund their lawsuit against the commission and hold their feet to the fire to improve our hunting options.

https://washingtonians-for-wildlife-conservation.square.site/s/shop

[vandeman17]

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

Hell, I would be willing to pay double, triple, and probably even much higher on ALL license fees if I thought it would fix WDFW and our fish/game woes.

For those of us willing to pay extra to make they WDFW better go to this website and click on associate membership for $100. From there you can click the number up from 100 to 200 or 300 or whatever you are willing to donate so this group can fund their lawsuit against the commission and hold their feet to the fire to improve our hunting options.

https://washingtonians-for-wildlife-conservation.square.site/s/shop

I am not willing to nor want to donate blindly to wdfw just to pee my money away. My comment was paying more per application if there were less options for the amount applications and thus improving overall odds.

[Rainier10]

I would also add that I would be willing to pay more for each application to help make up for the lost revenue considering most would end up likely paying less or the same anyway. 2 apps at $50 an app or 10 apps at an average of $10 per app is still $100 out of my pocket.

Hell, I would be willing to pay double, triple, and probably even much higher on ALL license fees if I thought it would fix WDFW and our fish/game woes.

For those of us willing to pay extra to make they WDFW better go to this website and click on associate membership for $100. From there you can click the number up from 100 to 200 or 300 or whatever you are willing to donate so this group can fund their lawsuit against the commission and hold their feet to the fire to improve our hunting options.

https://washingtonians-for-wildlife-conservation.square.site/s/shop

I am not willing to nor want to donate blindly to wdfw just to pee my money away. My comment was paying more per application if there were less options for the amount applications and thus improving overall odds.

This group is not the WDFW they are the group suing the governor and the commission for not doing their job. Giving WDFW more money isn’t going to help. Giving to group that will pressure WDFW to do there job hopefully will.

[yogru]

Does anyone know if they bring in any witnesses for the raffle draws?

[snake]

would you rather have a 1:50 chance in one category, or a 1:1500 chance in 14 categories?

Does anyone know the total amount of revenue generated just from the application fees?

[gee_unit360]

Wait...You were there as a citizen "witness", but only got to see one draw?

So much for transparency.    Is it any wonder why hunters and anglers have trust issues with the Dept.?

Hear Hear! The witnesses got to see one of the drawings! 🤷‍♂️ ridiculous

[trophyhunt]

Does anyone know if they bring in any witnesses for the raffle draws?

damn good question! I believe it is witnessed because of a law suit years ago, but not 100% sure.

[Rainier10]

Does anyone know if they bring in any witnesses for the raffle draws?

damn good question! I believe it is witnessed because of a law suit years ago, but not 100% sure.

I asked that question and was told no there is not a public witness for the raffles.

[Humptulips]

Wait...You were there as a citizen "witness", but only got to see one draw?

So much for transparency.    Is it any wonder why hunters and anglers have trust issues with the Dept.?

Hear Hear! The witnesses got to see one of the drawings! 🤷‍♂️ ridiculous

Does anyone know if they bring in any witnesses for the raffle draws?

damn good question! I believe it is witnessed because of a law suit years ago, but not 100% sure.

I asked that question and was told no there is not a public witness for the raffles.

.

[steeleywhopper]

The draw needs to go back to the 90s way if you drew a tag you had to wait 4 years to put back in for that tag but the years you couldn't put in you could buy your points.

I agree 100%