Wolves do affect business

[idahohuntr]

You avoided the question, how many nasty oufitters have treated you like you claim, please name them?

It has happened with enough frequency that it is not an isolated instance.  Most clam up when I tell them I am very familiar with what is/is not legal and they usually don't hand me their Drivers License...Of course, its easy to figure out who the outfitter is but I see no benefit to dragging someone through the mud that has gone out of business...If I run into any more that are still operating I will gladly post their names and describe my encounter in a topic on this forum...maybe there should be a new Topic on this forum "Businesses to stay away from" 

If you are asking for names because you don't believe I hunt those units or have had experiences with shady outfitters...well, I guess that fits your tinfoil hat paranoia where you think anti-hunters come to your website in droves to mislead people who post on the internet   

[KFhunter]

Way to paint everyone with a broad brush 

You're ideology is showing through.

[bearpaw]

how can you "lock up" private land,  it's private!

The owner does as they choose with it, should someone offer them a fist full of dollars for exclusive access then so be it.

In most cases it's a small handful of people being displaced who may have had access,  but in a lot of other cases no one had access previously and the presence of an outfitter changes that.

The complaints I read generally go like this. People used to be able to knock on doors and be allowed to hunt a lot of land in a lot of places in states like Montana. But in the last 20-30 years people have gotten tired of hunters mistreating their lands, saw an opportunity to make money, and started selling leases to outfitters who in turn act like private game wardens who take care of nuisance animals. The business has gotten more and more lucrative and more and more land has been locked up for the privileged people who can afford to pay.

Montana saw it as enough of a problem to have Initiative 161 pass.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2010/09/montana-initiative-could-raise-license-fees-gut-outfitter-industry

Fact: The Montana Board of Outfitters maintains a complete listing of all lands on which outfitters have leases. We cannot outfit on any private land without filing a form with the board. The amount of land leased by outfitters has been on a slow steady decline for nearly 10 years. Call the board and ask if you don't believe me.

Montana has a long history of urban hunters wanting to force rural landowners to open their lands to the public which is the reason I-161 passed, voters wanted to keep outfitters from leasing land. In my opinion the voters were pretty short sighted, I-161 eliminated outfitter sponsored licenses which were used to pay for the entire block management program  (a program to get resident and nonresident DIY hunters on private land) so the cost of regular DIY non-resident licenses has gone up greatly to support the block management program which has resulted in fewer DIY non-resident hunter numbers which has hurt many rural businesses like motels and restaurants which in turn hurts local E Montana economies. Outfitters still lease land and still guide hunters, it appears that I-161 hurt DIY non-resident hunters and local economies more than it did outfitters.

[bearpaw]

You avoided the question, how many nasty oufitters have treated you like you claim, please name them?

It has happened with enough frequency that it is not an isolated instance.  Most clam up when I tell them I am very familiar with what is/is not legal and they usually don't hand me their Drivers License...Of course, its easy to figure out who the outfitter is but I see no benefit to dragging someone through the mud that has gone out of business...If I run into any more that are still operating I will gladly post their names and describe my encounter in a topic on this forum...maybe there should be a new Topic on this forum "Businesses to stay away from" 

If you are asking for names because you don't believe I hunt those units or have had experiences with shady outfitters...well, I guess that fits your tinfoil hat paranoia where you think anti-hunters come to your website in droves to mislead people who post on the internet   

I like to deal in facts.

It's only a couple members who are possibly a concern, this scenario has been proven before twice, once with stolen hunter success photos posted by a poser, and once by a poser I banned who went on social media and bragged about posing under a specific username on this forum. 

Yes, I'm keeping you accountable for your statements, I don't think you have had that many different outfitters treat you poorly. Idaho has exclusive outfitter areas so only one outfitter can operate within an area. Also, perhaps you were trying to camp within a designated campsite that the outfitter has paid the forest or state a fee to have exclusive camping use. It's fair enough that you don't want to name outfitter names, please list how many different outfitters and the circumstances surrounding your claims.

I once had a dispute because my guides walked too close to some guy in a tree stand. He filed a complaint with the outfitter board and we had a meeting, him, myself, and a board officer. He wanted my license pulled because he hates outfitters sort of like you seem to, I volunteered to have my guides make a 400 yard detour around that stand whenever we hunted the area. The board accepted my proposal and all was settled. But that's the type of treatment outfitters are subject to from some hateful public hunters. Not saying you are necessarily that type, but I would like to see a complete list of your claimed abuse by so many outfitters.

[idahohuntr]

Way to paint everyone with a broad brush 

You're ideology is showing through.



Hey I got an idea, why don't you book a hunt with Bearpaw outfitters - do it incognito, he doesn't know your real name.


It's evident you book a lot of hunts, perhaps that's the sole source of your success you ranted on about the other day,  so booking with bearpaw wouldn't be out of the norm for you.

What are you even rambling about???  I've never been on a guided hunt in my life and have no plans to. 

[KFhunter]

Way to paint everyone with a broad brush 

You're ideology is showing through.



Hey I got an idea, why don't you book a hunt with Bearpaw outfitters - do it incognito, he doesn't know your real name.


It's evident you book a lot of hunts, perhaps that's the sole source of your success you ranted on about the other day,  so booking with bearpaw wouldn't be out of the norm for you.

What are you even rambling about???  I've never been on a guided hunt in my life and have no plans to.

Guess I misunderstood,  sounded like you had bad experiences with outfitters and I thought you were talking about as a client.

I went back and fixed it, my apologies for misunderstanding.

[idahohuntr]

You avoided the question, how many nasty oufitters have treated you like you claim, please name them?

It has happened with enough frequency that it is not an isolated instance.  Most clam up when I tell them I am very familiar with what is/is not legal and they usually don't hand me their Drivers License...Of course, its easy to figure out who the outfitter is but I see no benefit to dragging someone through the mud that has gone out of business...If I run into any more that are still operating I will gladly post their names and describe my encounter in a topic on this forum...maybe there should be a new Topic on this forum "Businesses to stay away from" 

If you are asking for names because you don't believe I hunt those units or have had experiences with shady outfitters...well, I guess that fits your tinfoil hat paranoia where you think anti-hunters come to your website in droves to mislead people who post on the internet   

I like to deal in facts.Thats funny  Oh wait, you're being serious 

Yes, I'm keeping you accountable for your statements, I don't think you have had that many different outfitters treat you poorly.   I have had multiple encounters with poor outfitter behavior.  It's the bads ones that stick out in my mind.  I don't owe you any explanations or descriptions or whatever you think you need from me.  Your not the IOGA or IDFG or whoever you think you are.  You don't police outfitter behavior and I am citing my observations as to why I don't mind outfitters going out of business.  I don't care if you like my opinion or not...it is based on my personal experiences and not your distorted view of the world where all outfitters are just wonderful people

Idaho has exclusive outfitter areas so only one outfitter can operate within an area. Also, perhaps you were trying to camp within a designated campsite that the outfitter has paid the forest or state a fee to have exclusive camping use. Nope.  It was not over camp spots.  It was outfitters deliberately trying to mislead or intimidate me into not going into specific areas they had planned to hunt as though they owned the area.  Non-outfitters behave the same way sometimes.

It's fair enough that you don't want to name outfitter names, please list how many different outfitters and the circumstances surrounding your claims.Your insistence on details is falling on deaf ears.  I was commenting on a general pattern I have observed as to why I am not too sad about NR outfitters going out of business because of declining elk herds in parts of Idaho...this is not a thread about a specific outfitter.  I am sure you are just dying for me to give you a specific name so you can call some hack friend of yours and have him come on here and claim he remembers me and that I have distorted all the facts bla bla bla.  I'm not going to play your little game.  I will be HAPPY to provide details of ANY future negative encounters...seems a few have done that this year already. 

[AspenBud]

You avoided the question, how many nasty oufitters have treated you like you claim, please name them?

It has happened with enough frequency that it is not an isolated instance.  Most clam up when I tell them I am very familiar with what is/is not legal and they usually don't hand me their Drivers License...Of course, its easy to figure out who the outfitter is but I see no benefit to dragging someone through the mud that has gone out of business...If I run into any more that are still operating I will gladly post their names and describe my encounter in a topic on this forum...maybe there should be a new Topic on this forum "Businesses to stay away from" 

If you are asking for names because you don't believe I hunt those units or have had experiences with shady outfitters...well, I guess that fits your tinfoil hat paranoia where you think anti-hunters come to your website in droves to mislead people who post on the internet   

I like to deal in facts.Thats funny  Oh wait, you're being serious 

Yes, I'm keeping you accountable for your statements, I don't think you have had that many different outfitters treat you poorly.   I have had multiple encounters with poor outfitter behavior.  It's the bads ones that stick out in my mind.  I don't owe you any explanations or descriptions or whatever you think you need from me.  Your not the IOGA or IDFG or whoever you think you are.  You don't police outfitter behavior and I am citing my observations as to why I don't mind outfitters going out of business.  I don't care if you like my opinion or not...it is based on my personal experiences and not your distorted view of the world where all outfitters are just wonderful people

Idaho has exclusive outfitter areas so only one outfitter can operate within an area. Also, perhaps you were trying to camp within a designated campsite that the outfitter has paid the forest or state a fee to have exclusive camping use. Nope.  It was not over camp spots.  It was outfitters deliberately trying to mislead or intimidate me into not going into specific areas they had planned to hunt as though they owned the area.  Non-outfitters behave the same way sometimes.

It's fair enough that you don't want to name outfitter names, please list how many different outfitters and the circumstances surrounding your claims.Your insistence on details is falling on deaf ears.  I was commenting on a general pattern I have observed as to why I am not too sad about NR outfitters going out of business because of declining elk herds in parts of Idaho...this is not a thread about a specific outfitter.  I am sure you are just dying for me to give you a specific name so you can call some hack friend of yours and have him come on here and claim he remembers me and that I have distorted all the facts bla bla bla.  I'm not going to play your little game.  I will be HAPPY to provide details of ANY future negative encounters...seems a few have done that this year already. 

To be fair, giving bad information about hunting spots or outright intimidation is not limited to outfitters. Lots of hunters lie about where honey holes are.

[idahohuntr]

I agree...and note that these tactics are also used by non-outfitters in my response. 

[KFhunter]

I feel like this guy,  except I'm shoveling bullscat

[idaho guy]

 Idaho hunter i dont get where you are coming from. I believe you have hunted in Idaho for a long time(maybe even lived north Idaho at one time?) Sounds like you have some good spots and are successfull. But the point is wolves have dramatically changed elk herds in many not all(yet) areas of Idaho where they are. Just read the Idaho regs-hunter opportunity is already being limited and seasons are being shortened in all of the panhandle but mostly the Joe. We still kill elk but I have seen firsthand that the numbers are way down in historically great areas and I have had to find new spots and there is less what I consider honey holes every year.   I am not a rocket scientist but if you look at a map of Idaho and start with the selway-ground zero for wolves- and move north you can track the wolves progress north with collapsing elk herds along the way. Idaho is aggresivley managing all predators and our herds are suffering(doesnt mean you cant still kill elk but there is less elk)  Washington state has proven that they are not good at managing predators(i.e hound hunting lions,trapping) Why say everything is ok,dont worry? I dont get the attitude of I still kill elk in Idaho or montana so everyone calm down. kf hunter is right and you should join him to make some noise and get some kind of predator management. There is no upside to washington hunting using your argument. By the way the county plates can get some dirty looks but the Washington license plates are the ones that really piss off the locals! I also have no problem with non res hunters since I also hunt non res in montana etc.  I think I need to post something to get me kicked off this site. It is addicting and I have wasted about 3 days of work reading these threads mostly on wolves, so help I can't get off hunt wa and i should be working so I can go out and actually kill some Idaho wolves! I can get ten tags including trapping! Killed one in my life-they is smart too

[KFhunter]

If I follow Idahohntr's logic then I must give you more credibility than him being that he's a nonresident as he continually attacks Dale for being an "non-resident" outfitter.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander huh?

[bearpaw]

You avoided the question, how many nasty oufitters have treated you like you claim, please name them?

It has happened with enough frequency that it is not an isolated instance.  Most clam up when I tell them I am very familiar with what is/is not legal and they usually don't hand me their Drivers License...Of course, its easy to figure out who the outfitter is but I see no benefit to dragging someone through the mud that has gone out of business...If I run into any more that are still operating I will gladly post their names and describe my encounter in a topic on this forum...maybe there should be a new Topic on this forum "Businesses to stay away from" 

If you are asking for names because you don't believe I hunt those units or have had experiences with shady outfitters...well, I guess that fits your tinfoil hat paranoia where you think anti-hunters come to your website in droves to mislead people who post on the internet   

I like to deal in facts.Thats funny  Oh wait, you're being serious 

Yes, I'm keeping you accountable for your statements, I don't think you have had that many different outfitters treat you poorly.   I have had multiple encounters with poor outfitter behavior.  It's the bads ones that stick out in my mind.  I don't owe you any explanations or descriptions or whatever you think you need from me.  Your not the IOGA or IDFG or whoever you think you are.  You don't police outfitter behavior and I am citing my observations as to why I don't mind outfitters going out of business.  I don't care if you like my opinion or not...it is based on my personal experiences and not your distorted view of the world where all outfitters are just wonderful people

Idaho has exclusive outfitter areas so only one outfitter can operate within an area. Also, perhaps you were trying to camp within a designated campsite that the outfitter has paid the forest or state a fee to have exclusive camping use. Nope.  It was not over camp spots.  It was outfitters deliberately trying to mislead or intimidate me into not going into specific areas they had planned to hunt as though they owned the area.  Non-outfitters behave the same way sometimes.

It's fair enough that you don't want to name outfitter names, please list how many different outfitters and the circumstances surrounding your claims.Your insistence on details is falling on deaf ears.  I was commenting on a general pattern I have observed as to why I am not too sad about NR outfitters going out of business because of declining elk herds in parts of Idaho...this is not a thread about a specific outfitter.  I am sure you are just dying for me to give you a specific name so you can call some hack friend of yours and have him come on here and claim he remembers me and that I have distorted all the facts bla bla bla.  I'm not going to play your little game.  I will be HAPPY to provide details of ANY future negative encounters...seems a few have done that this year already. 

I'm just a person who was giving you an chance to back up your claims that put NR outfitters in a bad light, I invited you to keep names anonymous. Truthfully, I think you are exaggerating, but no, you do not have any obligation at all to provide any real details to backup your claims. That choice is yours!

I agree...and note that these tactics are also used by non-outfitters in my response. 

   I would expect that most hunters or outfitters to keep their honey holes in confidence, especially on the internet.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Sitka you are a persistent bugger, I'll give you that.   

However, again you are trying to tap a point that is probably useless in this discussion. To my knowledge, that elk herd hasn't suffered any wolf impacts yet, so it's sort of a useless post at best for this discussion. Just for a reminder, it's the wolf impacted herds that have reduced hunter opportunity and damaged local businesses.

Think Yellowstone, lolo, selway, middlefork, panhandle, etc,... and you will be more on target.

Ok Bearpaw explain this chart which tracks Idaho's big game harvest from 1935 to 2005. If not having wolves is such a panacea for game populations and harvest, why did Idaho's herds crash in the mid 70s and why did they go up and down similarly to the present, before there were any wolves "Introduced"? 

http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/Statewide-Big-Game-Harvest.htm

At least admit that fluctuating game populations can happen from other influences other than predators. The difference back then was that they didn't have wolves to blame for natural ups and downs in game population. I say all this focus on wolves takes attention away from other factors that can depress herds like weather and habitat and man made disturbances such as logging, farming, road building, and an ever growing population.

As it is elk harvest in Idaho shrunk from a high of 28,000 in 1994 to 17,000 in 1999 before wolves could have had any significant impact and climbed back to 21,500 in 2005 after wolves had become established and spread. It has ranged from 17,000 to 15,000 since. But even those numbers wouldn't be considered poor historically. In fact until 1988 when 20,000 were killed. The largest previous harvest was the year before, 1987, when 16,000 were killed. Nobody was crying about that then, but in 2012 when  (only)16,000 elk are killed it's a hunting tragedy!

Same with deer. The harvest dropped from an all time high in 1990 of 72,000 to 38,6000 a few short years later in 1997, again well before wolves would have been any kind of measurable impact (being reintroduced in 1995). Then as the wolf population climbed and spread, against all of the logic you like to throw out about wolves ruining hunting, the harvest climbed again to about 50,000 in 2012.

I'm sorry my friend, but the results don't agree with your hypothesis. Can predators combine to affect game populations where other conditions are poor? Yes. But will they wipe out healthy populations of game that have the right natural conditions to prosper? Definitely no.

Hunt and trap wolves to your heart's content where legal. But unless the other limiting factors are addressed, the results will still be disheartening.

[idaho guy]

harvest went down because of the ice storm in 95 or 96 and bad winters. Yes weather effects big game. We have not had anything like that since and  quite a few really mild winters for a lot of the 2000s in Idaho. lolo elk herd 20000 before wolves 1700 after, yellowstone 20000 before wolves 6500 after. Facts dont lie.