End commercial gillnetting on the Columbia River. Need your help

[Dhoey07]

Food for thougth

http://ecotrope.opb.org/2012/10/study-finds-hatchery-salmon-dont-harm-wild-runs/

[WSU]

Interesting article.  The two studies don't really compare apples to apples though.  It could be that fall chinook populations act differently than the steelhead population studied, or it could be the different hatchery practices used.  I'm sure there could be other explanations as well, but I'm not a fisheries scientist.

[Dhoey07]

Interesting article.  The two studies don't really compare apples to apples though.  It could be that fall chinook populations act differently than the steelhead population studied, or it could be the different hatchery practices used.  I'm sure there could be other explanations as well, but I'm not a fisheries scientist.

Me neither.  And who knows who funded the study, you know how that can change outcomes. 

[WSU]

The study, I believe, was done by the Nez Pierce tribe as part of their attempts to revitalize the Snake River fall chinook runs that were destroyed by gillnetting and the dams.  They have been having some success releasing chinook and having them reproduce in the river.  It would seem tough to tell which fish that were spawning in the river are from smolts released or are actual return spawners from hatchery fish that spawned naturally in the river.  The study probably describes exactly what they did to try and tell the difference.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Just saw a crappy commercial. A little boy asking his dad why they are trying to take away the family tradition... Why would people want to do that... Come on now.

When they figure out a way to release, untargeted species and wild fish i might support them, but untill that day comes the nets need to go.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

That is just plain false.  The non-native gillnetting in Grays Harbor is a hell of a lot worse than that.  I just looked back at this year's schedule, and the non-tribal gillnetters fished 20 days in Grays Harbor.  They also fished way past the chum quota they were supposed to have (by 421%).  Those are facts.  Try to spin it how you want, but reality doesn't support your position.

Now who's just plain false?  I admit I was wrong, and that was from not checking this year's schedule and relying on what I knew from the not so distant past.  But you evidently read the schedule and still got it wrong. There were six 24 hour openers in 2C or the North Bay this year targeting chinooks. Then there were four 12 hour openers in 2A and a tiny portion of 2D (Mainstem Chehalis up to the big bend at Cosy) and two 12 hour openers in 2A and all of 2D and one 24 hour opener in 2A and 2D. That makes for fishing on 13 days, and six of those days were 12 hours or half days so the total non indian fishery was 10 days or 240 hours of fishing.

Now lets compare what the Natives caught to the non natives.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/landings.html

Chinook - Non natives - 1,219 ........ Natives - 3,457
Coho      - Non natives - 10,316....... Natives - 23,587
Chum     - Non natives - 1,015......... Natives - 4,993
Sturgeon - Non natives - 7 ...............Natives - 38

So what's the purpose of shutting down the non native gillnetters? To put more in the Native nets? Because that's what will happen I guarantee you. It won't make a lick of difference to sports fishermen.  And the Chum quota, what ever that was supposed to be? All I see in the regs was, wild non clipped chums and chinooks were supposed to be released. Those thousand chums the non natives took could be hatchery fish. But I'd be willing to bet the natives don't release wild fish. Who do you suppose is hurting the wild run then? As for releasing non targeted fish, non natives are limited to 45 min soaks and required to take the safe fishing class and get the card and have Jesus boxes to rejuvenate any wild fish before they are released. They are making an effort. Again, I don't believe the natives are under any such restrictions.

And as for your accusation that the sporties do all the work and the commercials get to catch all the fish, back in the 70's when I gillnetted Grays Harbor the Grays Harbor Gillnetters Association hatched dogs and silvers up the East Hoquiam and released them. We tried to get sportsmen groups to help try to enhance the runs, but couldn't get ANY help from them. What goes around comes around I guess. I was also hired in the late 70s to guard the fish traps on the Satsop from poachers who would sneak in and gaff fish out of them before the hatchery personnel could come around to roe strip them for the hatchery. I won't blame that on sportsmen, but it wasn't commercial fishermen doing it. It was poachers. I was paid from a fund from the Grays Harbor Gillnetters.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Here's the reality that supports my position

2006 Grays Harbor non Indian season.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/2006_willapabay_graysharbor_commercial_gillnet_sched_summary.pdf

"The Grays Harbor fishery began with a 1-day fishery on October 8, 2006 in Area 2C. This was followed by 4 consecutive, 8 hr days on October 10-13 in Areas 2A and 2D with boundary lines limited.Gear restriction was 6-inch maximum mesh, soak time was limited to 45 minutes and live boxes were required.(See the 2006 Commercial Gillnet Schedule for Grays Harbor for details of schedule and gear restrictions).There was NO RETENTION of Chinook or Green Sturgeon allowed."

OK that's 5 days, but only 56 hours of fishing for the whole year.

Now look at the catch difference.

Non indian - ZERO Chinooks - 649 Coho - 14 Chum
Indian        - 3,738 Chinook - *,633 Coho - 40,38

Again I ask, who's making the impact? So what's the point of shutting down the non natives? Again I'll say, if you do, the Indians will just take up the slack.

2008 Grays Harbor Season

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/2008_willapabay_graysharbor_commercial_gillnet_sched_summary.pdf

The Grays Harbor fishery began on October 8 through October 10, 2008 in Area 2A/2D. This was followed by 2-24 hr fisheries in Area 2C October 11-12 and October 15-16. There was NO RETENTION of Chinook (in Area 2A/2D only) or Green Sturgeon allowed.

4 Days of fishing. Starting to get the picture?

Compare catch

Non Indian    -  566 Chinook - 7,783 Coho - 241 Chum
Indian           -1,877 Chinook - 10,122 Coho - 2,069 Chum

I can go on and on if I did, and you would see more of the same.

[WSU]

That is just plain false.  The non-native gillnetting in Grays Harbor is a hell of a lot worse than that.  I just looked back at this year's schedule, and the non-tribal gillnetters fished 20 days in Grays Harbor.  They also fished way past the chum quota they were supposed to have (by 421%).  Those are facts.  Try to spin it how you want, but reality doesn't support your position.

Now who's just plain false?  I admit I was wrong, and that was from not checking this year's schedule and relying on what I knew from the not so distant past.  But you evidently read the schedule and still got it wrong. There were six 24 hour openers in 2C or the North Bay this year targeting chinooks. Then there were four 12 hour openers in 2A and a tiny portion of 2D (Mainstem Chehalis up to the big bend at Cosy) and two 12 hour openers in 2A and all of 2D and one 24 hour opener in 2A and 2D. That makes for fishing on 13 days, and six of those days were 12 hours or half days so the total non indian fishery was 10 days or 240 hours of fishing.

Now lets compare what the Natives caught to the non natives.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/landings.html

Chinook - Non natives - 1,219 ........ Natives - 3,457
Coho      - Non natives - 10,316....... Natives - 23,587
Chum     - Non natives - 1,015......... Natives - 4,993
Sturgeon - Non natives - 7 ...............Natives - 38

So what's the purpose of shutting down the non native gillnetters? To put more in the Native nets? Because that's what will happen I guarantee you. It won't make a lick of difference to sports fishermen.  And the Chum quota, what ever that was supposed to be? All I see in the regs was, wild non clipped chums and chinooks were supposed to be released. Those thousand chums the non natives took could be hatchery fish. But I'd be willing to bet the natives don't release wild fish. Who do you suppose is hurting the wild run then? As for releasing non targeted fish, non natives are limited to 45 min soaks and required to take the safe fishing class and get the card and have Jesus boxes to rejuvenate any wild fish before they are released. They are making an effort. Again, I don't believe the natives are under any such restrictions.

And as for your accusation that the sporties do all the work and the commercials get to catch all the fish, back in the 70's when I gillnetted Grays Harbor the Grays Harbor Gillnetters Association hatched dogs and silvers up the East Hoquiam and released them. We tried to get sportsmen groups to help try to enhance the runs, but couldn't get ANY help from them. What goes around comes around I guess. I was also hired in the late 70s to guard the fish traps on the Satsop from poachers who would sneak in and gaff fish out of them before the hatchery personnel could come around to roe strip them for the hatchery. I won't blame that on sportsmen, but it wasn't commercial fishermen doing it. It was poachers. I was paid from a fund from the Grays Harbor Gillnetters.

I was talking calendar days, you are talking openers.  Either way, it is a hell of a lot more than 2 days.  And, it ain't the 70's.  The fact is there are more fisherman and fewer fish to go around, and gillnetting is obsolete.  It's a waste of fish, a waste of money, and drains our economy.  Like it or not, gillnetting needs to go the way of the buffalo hunters.

[WSU]

Here's the reality that supports my position

2006 Grays Harbor non Indian season.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/2006_willapabay_graysharbor_commercial_gillnet_sched_summary.pdf

"The Grays Harbor fishery began with a 1-day fishery on October 8, 2006 in Area 2C. This was followed by 4 consecutive, 8 hr days on October 10-13 in Areas 2A and 2D with boundary lines limited.Gear restriction was 6-inch maximum mesh, soak time was limited to 45 minutes and live boxes were required.(See the 2006 Commercial Gillnet Schedule for Grays Harbor for details of schedule and gear restrictions).There was NO RETENTION of Chinook or Green Sturgeon allowed."

OK that's 5 days, but only 56 hours of fishing for the whole year.

Now look at the catch difference.

Non indian - ZERO Chinooks - 649 Coho - 14 Chum
Indian        - 3,738 Chinook - *,633 Coho - 40,38

Again I ask, who's making the impact? So what's the point of shutting down the non natives? Again I'll say, if you do, the Indians will just take up the slack.

2008 Grays Harbor Season

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/commercial/salmon/2008_willapabay_graysharbor_commercial_gillnet_sched_summary.pdf

The Grays Harbor fishery began on October 8 through October 10, 2008 in Area 2A/2D. This was followed by 2-24 hr fisheries in Area 2C October 11-12 and October 15-16. There was NO RETENTION of Chinook (in Area 2A/2D only) or Green Sturgeon allowed.

4 Days of fishing. Starting to get the picture?

Compare catch

Non Indian    -  566 Chinook - 7,783 Coho - 241 Chum
Indian           -1,877 Chinook - 10,122 Coho - 2,069 Chum

I can go on and on if I did, and you would see more of the same.

What's your point?  You and I both know the tribal fishers aren't going anywhere.  We can, however, get rid of the non-treaty gillnetting. 

It's great that you can post stats and stories from the 70's and half a decade ago, but it still doesn't refute my point that non-tribal gillnetting is a waste.  Those 10K fish would be better used pumping tens of thousands of dollars into the depressed grays harbor county economy then they are being caught by a few dozen gillnetters.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I was talking calendar days, you are talking openers.  Either way, it is a hell of a lot more than 2 days.  And, it ain't the 70's.  The fact is there are more fisherman and fewer fish to go around, and gillnetting is obsolete.  It's a waste of fish, a waste of money, and drains our economy.  Like it or not, gillnetting needs to go the way of the buffalo hunters.

You were talking about those non tribal gillnetters that you always see in Aberdeen. the fact is, out of the actual 13 days non-tribal fishermen had this year, 6 of those days were in the North Bay so you didn't see them. Where you see them in Aberdeen, they fished 7 days. Six of those days were half days. So I hardly think you see them "all the time". Who you do see the majotity of the time are tribal gillnetters. Try telling them they need to go the way of the buffalo. Also, the Native catch totals I posted are for the lower River.  They don't include the catch upstream near Oakville and the reservation.

Now if the non native caught gillnet fish get sold and are eaten by the public. Pray tell, how are they being wasted? What you really mean is, they aren't being caught by YOU. Because the end user is the public. Does everybody have to buy a $30,000 boat and all the gear before they deserve to eat public salmon? Or is it OK for them to buy it for $4.99 a lb? (the price for local wild silvers at Swanson's in Hoquiam yesterday) I guarantee those local fishermen catching them are putting the dollars they make back into the local economy. I seriously doubt the guy from Seattle who buys his boat and gear up there and his gas and food along the way is putting much into the local economy no matter what studies you tout.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

So lets sit by and do nothing. Lets not start somewhere. Again lets just stand by and watch a net catch every last fish. I could care less if i have more opportunity. I have caught my share of fish, i hope my kid and grandkids have the opportunity.

Frustrating to say the least.

Seems the gillnetters need to use emotion over fact because if they tried to use fact on TV they would lose. Just like the bear baiting ban, all emotion no fact.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

So lets sit by and do nothing. Lets not start somewhere. Again lets just stand by and watch a net catch every last fish. I could care less if i have more opportunity. I have caught my share of fish, i hope my kid and grandkids have the opportunity.

Frustrating to say the least.

Seems the gillnetters need to use emotion over fact because if they tried to use fact on TV they would lose. Just like the bear baiting ban, all emotion no fact.

You're the one using emotion. I posted cold hard facts. The fish belong to the public, and that's where gillnet caught fish end up, with the public eating them.  Your argument is so emotional that you threw in the "let's do it for the kids and grandkids"  emotional plea.  Your nic screams emotional...WDFW Hates Me!

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Yep.. Hope there are fish left four the next generation. Well that aren't farmed. That's called hope...

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

And you are saying just because someone else does it it should be ok for you to do it?

Not much we can do about the native netting, they have Been given the right to harvest 50% of the fish. If they still get only 50 percent of 100 would they get more with no commercial netters? Don't understand your argument. The commercial harvest would still take place in the ocean. So the public would still get fish from those commercial fishermen? Right or wrong?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Netting isn't the problem. Habitat and management is the problem. Alaska is proof of that. There is all kinds of netting there and we've been having record runs. But you have to have plenty of good habitat, and you need managers and a plan that puts getting a minimum number of fish to the spawning grounds. On the Copper River Delta where I gillnet, we have a sonar in the river and Fish and Game has escapement goals for every day of the run. If the minimum escapement isn't being met, Our fishing time is restricted or in severe shortages, shut down until the numbers pick up. And if the maximum desired escapement is exceeded, we are given extra fishing time. The escapement includes a certain # for breeding, and a certain # for other user groups, which include subsistence users, personal use users, and sports fishermen.

Do you really think commercial fishermen want to catch every last fish? That's crazy talk, because then their livelyhood is gone. Just like you want to catch fish in the future, so do we. Why would we want to make a few more thousand dollars this year if it meant we lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in the future. We are smart enough to know we need breeding stock to sustain runs.

I believe the State of Washinton under escapes wild fish every year and that's a big part of the problem. It also depends too much on hatchery fish which just compounds the problem for wild fish. And there is too much degraded habitat here. The State won't enforce good water quality standards on private landholders including timberland owners.  But as long as the salmon user groups can be kept fighting each other, no one will hold the State responsible for doing what is really right by the salmon. They'll just keep hiding the problem with hatcheries and at the same time add to the problem.