Intro to gunfire/ gun shyness prevention.

[Stilly bay]

There is a lot of misinformation floating around about introducing a pup to gunfire. I have lost count of how many times I have read casual suggestions of " leave the pup in the back of your truck and go to the shooting range" or "blast a 12 gauge round over his head while he isn't paying attention"... more often than not a young pup doesn't fear the gun despite of this stupid practice.
as simple as intro to gunfire can be it will affect your dog for the rest of its life in one way or another.  getting a dog through gun shyness is no easy task and every one involved would be a lot better in the long run if dogs were started off right to begin with. however sometimes it can't be avoided; my gordon setter was hit by a truck at age Three; he was horribly gun shy for awhile even though he had a proper gun introduction when he was a pup and had hundreds of birds shot over him before his accident, but we worked through it. I really believe for many dogs there are ways to get around or through being noise sensitive.

I would like to hear everyone's take on proper introduction to gunfire, do's and don'ts it might help out some new bird dog owners and keep some pups from being fearful. I would also like to hear some gun shyness success or horror stories, maybe there are some solutions out there for some pups needing a second chance.

[hollymaster]

I start with banging a pot or pan a room over while they eat and slowly work closer till I'm banging it over there head with out any flinching. Then move to the back of the truck with the .22 then the shotguns.

[Shannon]

I start with caps then .22 blanks then a .410 then 12 gauge shots while they are eating as pups. Then in the field while they are chasing planted birds I shoot a blank .22 and repeat over a few days until I'm gradually up to a 12 gauge. Never had any problems with these methods.

[Happy Gilmore]

When they like birds it's time to make noise at distance. I never understood banging pots and pans over meal time and how that is supposed to get a dog to associate gun fire with feathers which equals fun to the dogs.

[hillbilli]

when mine was a pup I went out one day with a friend, and with one of us having her on a leash, the other would fire a .22 the other way when she was 10-20yds up the trail.. the first couple times she flipped out, and we convinced her it was fine.. within an hour she paid no attention to the gun.. then i broke out the 9mm.. she freaked the first couple times, we convinced her it was fine, and within 20 minute she was ok with it.. by the end of the day I could shoot off the .308's and she didnt seem to care.. that was my method, and it worked with her.. she's up in years now, and she's a malamute cross, not a lab, but I think the method is sound.. I suppose a cap gun or blanks would work, but I just used what i had..

[Stilly bay]

When they like birds it's time to make noise at distance. I never understood banging pots and pans over meal time and how that is supposed to get a dog to associate gun fire with feathers which equals fun to the dogs.

I agree one hundred and ten percent, but for the sake of argument lets say someone with a pup has no birds available to use - for what ever reason- would this be a good alternative? It certainly has been suggested a thousand times over in rehashed birddog magazines and dog training books.
is banging pots and pans during feeding time just creating a pavlovian response? I did this with a few of my dogs and they sure did get excited for dinner when I started clanging pans... or are pups avoiding noise sensitivity despite his owner banging pans and slamming cupboards at feeding time? or does it really work?

[jetjockey]

When they like birds it's time to make noise at distance. I never understood banging pots and pans over meal time and how that is supposed to get a dog to associate gun fire with feathers which equals fun to the dogs.

I agree 100%!  If its going to be a bird dog, eventually it will need birds.  The easiest way IMO is to let the dog have a find, flush the bird, and fire a muffled blank pistol as the dog gives chase and gets a ways from the pistol.  The "shot" should be loud enough for the dog to hear but quiet enough that it doesn't care because it has the bird flying away on its mind.   

For something that is really pretty easy, it seems a lot of people make it more difficult than it needs to be.  This is one of those times fitting for KISS.

[Happy Gilmore]

The pots and pan thing was described in one dog training book by an author who wasn't a dog trainer. I introduce pups to a .22 blank at 100 yards. I only move closer if the pup shows no sign of spookyness or fear. I only use birds. I want the first bang associated with feathers. I suppose you could use a tennis ball if you had the bandana tied around your Golden retrievers neck?

[wildweeds]

It's all about birds,birds birds birds,Wing clipped LIVE pigeons,Two people and a shotgun,You jack the pup/dog up with the bird you toss it in the air and the dog chases it down,as the dog is just getting about getting to the bird,the helper/gunner shoots the shotgun in the air 180 degrees away from the action from 50 yards or so away.

You do bird intro first and when the dog is jacked about birds you add the gun to the mix.I despise the blank gun makes a "Krack" Rather than a "Boom",I use a .410 and use muzzle direction and yardage to set the loudness factor.

[hollymaster]

For me, firing a gun around isn't a daily option.

[wildweeds]

I agree one hundred and ten percent, but for the sake of argument lets say someone with a pup has no birds available to use - for what ever reason-

The biggest reason someone wouldn't have any birds is human laziness,in either the legwork to find a person that had birds for sale,craigslist and such,or contacting a professional trainer that has birds for some rental time on birds and time to help.Most dog trainers would rather make very little money helping someone acclimate a dog to the gun properly than try to fix the gunshy that ensues from improper tactics.

The Fellow in Acme with the  shooting preserve does gun intro for a  reasonable price,All a person has to do is show up with a dog.

[Stilly bay]

I agree one hundred and ten percent, but for the sake of argument lets say someone with a pup has no birds available to use - for what ever reason-

The biggest reason someone wouldn't have any birds is human laziness,in either the legwork to find a person that had birds for sale,craigslist and such,or contacting a professional trainer that has birds for some rental time on birds and time to help.

no doubt it takes birds to make a bird dog.
ideally if your getting a bird dog - be it retriever or pointer- it would really behoove you to have some birds lined up somewhere for training purposes. in reality I don't think that happens nearly as much as it should and people are always putting the cart before the horse or in this case the dog before the birds. how many times on this site alone have you seen posts where people have a dog already, but they are scrambling for training birds? like health clearances, pedigrees, and titles the average new dog owner doesn't give training birds the slightest consideration before buying a dog.
too many people make do with bird wings ( not a proper substitution beyond small puppies IMO) or just wait until hunting season for bird exposure. and if a dog is old enough to hunt it is already way past due for an intro to gunfire.

Sooo for the sake of argument: Peter procrastinator has a growing pup, but he has no birds, no where to keep birds, and doesn't even know where to find them in the first place... he doesn't have the money to seek a trainers  help since he just bought a bargain dog and is in and out of the vet constantly...what would be a good way to ready a dog for gunfire?

[wildweeds]

No shortcut around birds PERIOD!The only shortcut I see possibly that will have it's own set of repercussions is "Free" worn out laying chickens.Although introduction to gunfire is a relatively short process,maybe 3 outings at the most if the dog is "Birdy".I'm not real sure but 50 bucks a session with a pro sounds reasonable to me,money for the land time and a few homers/feral birds.

As a side note I know a little fellow in moses lake who has emailed me with feral pigeons he has been trapping and has for sale.Asking questions on a board such as this one can net a person a few birds here and there,perhaps relatively close in geographic location.

I do not have a problem with helping someone gun intro a dog for nothing as gun shyness ticks me off to no end because as allready mentioned is 99% the owners fault.,you have to want to do it right and doing gun intro right is the easiest part of training a dog IMO.

Perhaps the question on the other thread about "First time dog owners breeder questions" should have a section that includes preparing for X amount of birds for gun intro.

[AspenBud]

It doesn't cost much or require a lot of space to build a small coop with a two or three homing pigeons in it. The birds are reuseable and guys who raise them often need to cull a few which means giving some away or selling them for 3-6 bucks a piece.

[Bluemoon]

I don't know if I like this post, because I have to agree with Wildweeds, Jet Jockey, Stilly and Happy.    IMO you guys are spot on!!!  I just came in from introducing puppies to birds and gunfire today..For those reading this you can learn a lot from listening to those mentioned above..

[wildweeds]

Blue,

  For those reading that maybe to shy to ask,if one was looking for help with bird/gun intro,what would be a guestimate on the fee? For say a package deal that included birds,your time/land use on a 4 outing package?

Question #2 Would you rather ...............................

                         A) Help at the onset and get the gun/bird intro right with an owner participated training sessions

                         B) or curing Gunshy yourself,that selection A would have negated

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't know if I like this post, because I have to agree with Wildweeds, Jet Jockey, Stilly and Happy.   

And a meteor is going to land in Russia...lol..

[Widgeondeke]

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

[Stilly bay]

Perhaps the question on the other thread about "First time dog owners breeder questions" should have a section that includes preparing for X amount of birds for gun intro.

good idea. ideally you should be searching for a good reliable bird supply probably even before you start looking for that perfect litter of pups. your going to need birds for almost every stage of your pups development into adult hood.
but how many beginners even know to do that?

It doesn't cost much or require a lot of space to build a small coop with a two or three homing pigeons in it. The birds are reuseable and guys who raise them often need to cull a few which means giving some away or selling them for 3-6 bucks a piece.

there is nothing easier to raise than pigeons. a small 4x8 building will hold about 12ish with room for a little breeding, if you do it right you will have a flock of training birds that you can use over and over again.
I started keeping pigeons because there were never any available for sale when I needed them most. now I have about 20 breeders cranking out squabs, in a few months I should be overrun with training birds and my feed bill is only about $15-30 a month to feed all those birds.

For something that is really pretty easy, it seems a lot of people make it more difficult than it needs to be.  This is one of those times fitting for KISS.

granted it is pretty easy and it only takes a few outings for most dogs to get the idea, but IMO there is some subtlety involved that beginners might not be aware of or just might not think of.

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

I would say around four months ( with a 209 primer) if the pup is sufficiently rabid about birds. you don't want his first experience with a bird to coincide with his first intro to gun fire.

[wildweeds]

I gun/bird intro'd the litter of pups I had before they left the outfit,but they weren't what I would call average pups,they had ton's and tons of time spent with them and were hair on fire bold,They were raised with the "Wing and Shot" Book outline, puppy walks in gangs,braces and solo efforts,this was done on a daily basis from the time they were 5 weeks old,they got to see sacrificed homing pigeons that had all the wing and tail feathers pulled out of them.They were 12 weeks old when they got the gun intro,which were wing clipped chukars and a 410 at distance,not a flincher in the bunch see pictures below.I owned the sire of these pups as an 8 week old,at 16 weeks I was killing birds over his points,very natural dog.He produced better than himself IMO as the pups are substantially better than either parent,and the parents as judged by others in 3 different states and 2 canadian provinces thought they were pretty good as evidenced by the ribbion count.




To awnser your question it's going to vary from dog to dog,depending on boldness.I've seen pups that were full of whiz and vinegar that could be great candidates for it at 10 weeks and I've also seen and had a hand in some others that were not ready at 6 months because of their mindset,the thing is being able to "Read" a dog and knowing when to finish the act of pulling the trigger to make the noise,If I don't like the actions of the dog I don't pull the trigger,it's paid off numerous times.I personally owned a setter that wasn't ready for gun intro at 1 year old,he was a weirdo and I managed to get it done and he's fine with it but it was an undertaking that tested my patience,the dog flat out didn't like/wasn't jacked up about birds.I gave that CH sired dog away to a member on this board at 2 years old,the dog had 2 seasons under his belt and wasn't what I was looking for.The guy occasionally posts pictures of the dog with dead birds on here.

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

[jetjockey]

I don't see any reason to rush training or the intro to gunfire.  IMO 5-6 months is the age where you can start to introduce birds and begin to do some very light training, including firing around.  9-10 months, or when they are mentally ready, is when you can start introducing real training and consistent firing over.  Training a bird dog is a process, and there's no reason to rush it. 

[huntingfool7]

I raise pigeons for dog training and I honestly like flying them.  I'm surprised how many friends sneer and call me a "pigeon farmer" among other derogatory comments. 

Selling birds to guys that want training birds is a losing proposition.  Everyone thinks they should be next to free because they're just pigeons.  Normally wanting to pick up 4-5 birds for $4-5.00/ea and hold onto them for less than 24 hrs.  If you're raising them, it costs a buck to a buck forty a month per bird just to feed them.  If they aren't ferals, they cost someone more than $5 in feed.   

As for noise training- I start out with a cap gun while pup is eating or retrieving a bumper.  Then move up to a .38 firing primers while retrieving.  I start them on birds separately and then combine the gunshot with the birds.  Next I'll move to the 410/28 gauge while retrieving dead birds/bumpers with someone else standing back doing the shooting.  Finally shooting live birds over pup.

It's most important for pup to think the shot = fun.

[AspenBud]

I've had guys literally give away pigeons to me for training. Well, ok, I might have bought them a six pack for the trouble but still.

Coops can only hold so many birds and usually the extras turn into retrieving dummies if they don't get rid of them.

[JJD]

Simply put, the object of the game is to associate noise with something good. 
Pups love to chase birds, they are the perfect medium.   I don't see the need for daily exposure, if you can only do it 2 or 3 times a week, you'll still get there. 
Food association will work too, the down side might be that every time your gun goes off, your dog starts to drool 
Unless your dog absolutely loves the back of your truck, I just don't see the desired association in that.  I could not see how surprising a pup with loud noise would be good.

[BIGINNER]

didn't read through all the posts,.. but I never understood the pot banging either. 

I always work my pups to love birds.  once they are crazy over birds I start teaching them that BANG=BIRD.   there's a process to it of course,...  but BANG needs to = BIRD.  not a banging pot = whothehellknowswhat....

[huntingfool7]

I've had guys literally give away pigeons to me for training. Well, ok, I might have bought them a six pack for the trouble but still.

Coops can only hold so many birds and usually the extras turn into retrieving dummies if they don't get rid of them.

I was just saying (poorly) that the guys that I've given free or cheap trainers to normally don't show up when they say they will or more likely don't show up at all.
It's pretty common for guys to think that training birds don't have much actual value or real cost.

[Happy Gilmore]

I won't pay more than $3 a bird but, usually buy over 50 at a time.

[JJD]

I won't pay more than $3 a bird but, usually buy over 50 at a time.

If I could find them for less than $3 a bird, I would no longer trap or night net them in old barns.  You are fortunate.

[andersonjk4]

I'm going to bring this topic back up. 

 I have a 7 month old female GSP who has been kind of a wuss.  She was the runt and has always been a little skiddish.  But she is getting bolder and bolder by the day and I am thinking it is time to start introducing gun fire.  She started out being very sensitive to loud noises (thunder, fireworks, loud bass, etc.), but she is getting over most of those things now.  This is why I have waited this long to introduce gun fire.  My other two pointers never showed any shyness to loud noises as pups and I just took them out and shot around them while they were playing and having fun and they never even flinched.  I feel like I need to be way more careful and deliberate with this pup.  I agree with the above comments about making gun fire associated with birds and plan on using birds to help with the introduction.  My question now is whether I should use my older dogs to help with this training?  The old dogs associate guns with birds already and get really excited when the shotgun even comes out and go crazy looking for downed birds when a shot is fired.  Do I use this to my advantage and let the pup see the other dogs getting excited over gun fire?  She already clings to them and does whatever they do.  Or do I leave the big dogs home and keep the focus on her?   I have been planning on using the big dogs to help, but I figured I would consult others who may have experience with this.

[Stilly bay]

Yes use the older dogs! Your pup will take her cues off them. If she see the older dogs get excited she should just decide there is nothing to worry about.
just make sure you don't startle the older dogs when you do the intro!

Same thing with you, if she starts getting scared of a loud noise like thunder or fireworks just ignore her. Don't coddle her or say "its ok" because it is not OK.

I was walking my setter shortly after I got him with two of my other dogs that were already gun proof. Someone nearby blasted off a 12gauge or something incredibly loud. The setter jumped out of his skin and tried to bolt, but he was on a leash so couldn't go far.
both my other dogs perked up because of the boom and got excited, I ignored my setters reaction, and I swear that he looked at me and the other two and he felt embarrassed for his reaction... Im probably anthropomorphizing  this a little bit but you get the gist.
Ever since then loud noises don't phase him and on the 4th of july he runs out in the yard with the rest of them hoping a bird will fall.

[BIGINNER]

you situation might ne a little different than mine, but I introduced 4 pups to gunfire by bringing my older dog along,... they see his excited reaction to the shot, and follow along,

on a side note, I do everything as if i'm introducing both dogs to gunfire for the first time,... I just makes it a bit easer when they have an older dog to learn from.


this is MY experience though,.... your situation might be a little different

[andersonjk4]

Same thing with you, if she starts getting scared of a loud noise like thunder or fireworks just ignore her. Don't coddle her or say "its ok" because it is not OK.

This has always been my feelings too.... just wish my fiancé felt the same way too .  But its getting better and that is why she (the pup) is getting better and better with loud noises. 

Thanks for the input guys.

[wildweeds]

If your dog is already giving signs of being shy,here's some advice if you really want to end up with the dog being a gundog, Call R.J. Marquart at Quicksilver kennels in Moses Lake,hes the master of curing dogs that have been made gunshy by mans silly antics of shooting around food bowls,taking to gun club,not doing anything with other than taking the dog out opening day with 5 best buddies and blazing away over.If you were in my backyard I would be more than glad to help you or anyother member for that matter,acclimate the dog to the gun.If  your okay with a pet and you've got a noise sensitive dog at the onset,try it. RJ fixed a gunshy earlier this summer that Dan Hoke had for 3 months,the dog was more gunshy at the end of 3 months than before it started.2 months worth of training to repair the damage.RJ has a facebook page and is going to be posting a video series on "Fixing" a "Gunshy" dog,It will all be posted at one time and will include start to finish.

My buddy also has a shy/timid/gsp  that is being dropped off in Moses on Sunday for a months worth,if the dog isn't gunshy yet,a month is what it will take to get going down the right road.800 bucks now is better than 16-24 hundred later. 

I'm going to bring this topic back up. 

 I have a 7 month old female GSP who has been kind of a wuss.  She was the runt and has always been a little skiddish.  But she is getting bolder and bolder by the day and I am thinking it is time to start introducing gun fire.  She started out being very sensitive to loud noises (thunder, fireworks, loud bass, etc.), but she is getting over most of those things now.  This is why I have waited this long to introduce gun fire.  My other two pointers never showed any shyness to loud noises as pups and I just took them out and shot around them while they were playing and having fun and they never even flinched.  I feel like I need to be way more careful and deliberate with this pup.  I agree with the above comments about making gun fire associated with birds and plan on using birds to help with the introduction.  My question now is whether I should use my older dogs to help with this training?  The old dogs associate guns with birds already and get really excited when the shotgun even comes out and go crazy looking for downed birds when a shot is fired.  Do I use this to my advantage and let the pup see the other dogs getting excited over gun fire?  She already clings to them and does whatever they do.  Or do I leave the big dogs home and keep the focus on her?   I have been planning on using the big dogs to help, but I figured I would consult others who may have experience with this.