Intro to gunfire/ gun shyness prevention.

[wildweeds]

Blue,

  For those reading that maybe to shy to ask,if one was looking for help with bird/gun intro,what would be a guestimate on the fee? For say a package deal that included birds,your time/land use on a 4 outing package?

Question #2 Would you rather ...............................

                         A) Help at the onset and get the gun/bird intro right with an owner participated training sessions

                         B) or curing Gunshy yourself,that selection A would have negated

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't know if I like this post, because I have to agree with Wildweeds, Jet Jockey, Stilly and Happy.   

And a meteor is going to land in Russia...lol..

[Widgeondeke]

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

[Stilly bay]

Perhaps the question on the other thread about "First time dog owners breeder questions" should have a section that includes preparing for X amount of birds for gun intro.

good idea. ideally you should be searching for a good reliable bird supply probably even before you start looking for that perfect litter of pups. your going to need birds for almost every stage of your pups development into adult hood.
but how many beginners even know to do that?

It doesn't cost much or require a lot of space to build a small coop with a two or three homing pigeons in it. The birds are reuseable and guys who raise them often need to cull a few which means giving some away or selling them for 3-6 bucks a piece.

there is nothing easier to raise than pigeons. a small 4x8 building will hold about 12ish with room for a little breeding, if you do it right you will have a flock of training birds that you can use over and over again.
I started keeping pigeons because there were never any available for sale when I needed them most. now I have about 20 breeders cranking out squabs, in a few months I should be overrun with training birds and my feed bill is only about $15-30 a month to feed all those birds.

For something that is really pretty easy, it seems a lot of people make it more difficult than it needs to be.  This is one of those times fitting for KISS.

granted it is pretty easy and it only takes a few outings for most dogs to get the idea, but IMO there is some subtlety involved that beginners might not be aware of or just might not think of.

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

I would say around four months ( with a 209 primer) if the pup is sufficiently rabid about birds. you don't want his first experience with a bird to coincide with his first intro to gun fire.

[wildweeds]

I gun/bird intro'd the litter of pups I had before they left the outfit,but they weren't what I would call average pups,they had ton's and tons of time spent with them and were hair on fire bold,They were raised with the "Wing and Shot" Book outline, puppy walks in gangs,braces and solo efforts,this was done on a daily basis from the time they were 5 weeks old,they got to see sacrificed homing pigeons that had all the wing and tail feathers pulled out of them.They were 12 weeks old when they got the gun intro,which were wing clipped chukars and a 410 at distance,not a flincher in the bunch see pictures below.I owned the sire of these pups as an 8 week old,at 16 weeks I was killing birds over his points,very natural dog.He produced better than himself IMO as the pups are substantially better than either parent,and the parents as judged by others in 3 different states and 2 canadian provinces thought they were pretty good as evidenced by the ribbion count.




To awnser your question it's going to vary from dog to dog,depending on boldness.I've seen pups that were full of whiz and vinegar that could be great candidates for it at 10 weeks and I've also seen and had a hand in some others that were not ready at 6 months because of their mindset,the thing is being able to "Read" a dog and knowing when to finish the act of pulling the trigger to make the noise,If I don't like the actions of the dog I don't pull the trigger,it's paid off numerous times.I personally owned a setter that wasn't ready for gun intro at 1 year old,he was a weirdo and I managed to get it done and he's fine with it but it was an undertaking that tested my patience,the dog flat out didn't like/wasn't jacked up about birds.I gave that CH sired dog away to a member on this board at 2 years old,the dog had 2 seasons under his belt and wasn't what I was looking for.The guy occasionally posts pictures of the dog with dead birds on here.

So, lots of good info so far. 
Question: at what age do you recommend introducing a pup to gun fire ?

Thx

[jetjockey]

I don't see any reason to rush training or the intro to gunfire.  IMO 5-6 months is the age where you can start to introduce birds and begin to do some very light training, including firing around.  9-10 months, or when they are mentally ready, is when you can start introducing real training and consistent firing over.  Training a bird dog is a process, and there's no reason to rush it. 

[huntingfool7]

I raise pigeons for dog training and I honestly like flying them.  I'm surprised how many friends sneer and call me a "pigeon farmer" among other derogatory comments. 

Selling birds to guys that want training birds is a losing proposition.  Everyone thinks they should be next to free because they're just pigeons.  Normally wanting to pick up 4-5 birds for $4-5.00/ea and hold onto them for less than 24 hrs.  If you're raising them, it costs a buck to a buck forty a month per bird just to feed them.  If they aren't ferals, they cost someone more than $5 in feed.   

As for noise training- I start out with a cap gun while pup is eating or retrieving a bumper.  Then move up to a .38 firing primers while retrieving.  I start them on birds separately and then combine the gunshot with the birds.  Next I'll move to the 410/28 gauge while retrieving dead birds/bumpers with someone else standing back doing the shooting.  Finally shooting live birds over pup.

It's most important for pup to think the shot = fun.

[AspenBud]

I've had guys literally give away pigeons to me for training. Well, ok, I might have bought them a six pack for the trouble but still.

Coops can only hold so many birds and usually the extras turn into retrieving dummies if they don't get rid of them.

[JJD]

Simply put, the object of the game is to associate noise with something good. 
Pups love to chase birds, they are the perfect medium.   I don't see the need for daily exposure, if you can only do it 2 or 3 times a week, you'll still get there. 
Food association will work too, the down side might be that every time your gun goes off, your dog starts to drool 
Unless your dog absolutely loves the back of your truck, I just don't see the desired association in that.  I could not see how surprising a pup with loud noise would be good.

[BIGINNER]

didn't read through all the posts,.. but I never understood the pot banging either. 

I always work my pups to love birds.  once they are crazy over birds I start teaching them that BANG=BIRD.   there's a process to it of course,...  but BANG needs to = BIRD.  not a banging pot = whothehellknowswhat....

[huntingfool7]

I've had guys literally give away pigeons to me for training. Well, ok, I might have bought them a six pack for the trouble but still.

Coops can only hold so many birds and usually the extras turn into retrieving dummies if they don't get rid of them.

I was just saying (poorly) that the guys that I've given free or cheap trainers to normally don't show up when they say they will or more likely don't show up at all.
It's pretty common for guys to think that training birds don't have much actual value or real cost.

[Happy Gilmore]

I won't pay more than $3 a bird but, usually buy over 50 at a time.

[JJD]

I won't pay more than $3 a bird but, usually buy over 50 at a time.

If I could find them for less than $3 a bird, I would no longer trap or night net them in old barns.  You are fortunate.

[andersonjk4]

I'm going to bring this topic back up. 

 I have a 7 month old female GSP who has been kind of a wuss.  She was the runt and has always been a little skiddish.  But she is getting bolder and bolder by the day and I am thinking it is time to start introducing gun fire.  She started out being very sensitive to loud noises (thunder, fireworks, loud bass, etc.), but she is getting over most of those things now.  This is why I have waited this long to introduce gun fire.  My other two pointers never showed any shyness to loud noises as pups and I just took them out and shot around them while they were playing and having fun and they never even flinched.  I feel like I need to be way more careful and deliberate with this pup.  I agree with the above comments about making gun fire associated with birds and plan on using birds to help with the introduction.  My question now is whether I should use my older dogs to help with this training?  The old dogs associate guns with birds already and get really excited when the shotgun even comes out and go crazy looking for downed birds when a shot is fired.  Do I use this to my advantage and let the pup see the other dogs getting excited over gun fire?  She already clings to them and does whatever they do.  Or do I leave the big dogs home and keep the focus on her?   I have been planning on using the big dogs to help, but I figured I would consult others who may have experience with this.

[Stilly bay]

Yes use the older dogs! Your pup will take her cues off them. If she see the older dogs get excited she should just decide there is nothing to worry about.
just make sure you don't startle the older dogs when you do the intro!

Same thing with you, if she starts getting scared of a loud noise like thunder or fireworks just ignore her. Don't coddle her or say "its ok" because it is not OK.

I was walking my setter shortly after I got him with two of my other dogs that were already gun proof. Someone nearby blasted off a 12gauge or something incredibly loud. The setter jumped out of his skin and tried to bolt, but he was on a leash so couldn't go far.
both my other dogs perked up because of the boom and got excited, I ignored my setters reaction, and I swear that he looked at me and the other two and he felt embarrassed for his reaction... Im probably anthropomorphizing  this a little bit but you get the gist.
Ever since then loud noises don't phase him and on the 4th of july he runs out in the yard with the rest of them hoping a bird will fall.