Interesting broadhead grouping problem

[Band]

I'm finding that my arrows are grouping very well with fields points but poorly with broadheads even though they are spin testing well.  The interesting thing is that each arrow is repeatedly hitting the same spot with broadheads but one arrow always hits high right, another low left, another high left, etc.  I have an idea of the problem but I would be interested to know what is on your short list of considerations to resolve such a situation.  What do you think?

[jpharcher]

Are the blade to fletch alignments the same orientation?

[BABackcountryBwhntr]

turn the knocks and I bet that fixes the issue.

[Fullabull]

Field points grouping well does not mean your bow is tuned. Download the Easton tuning guide and follow that. When you can swap a field point and BH and they are hitting the same place. Then test all arrows with BH's, if any are off get an arrow squaring tool and make sure the arrows are square. I have saved many arrows from the target only pile to hunting arrows by doing this.

[sled]

Tagging this.  Interesting.  This stuff always interests me.

[RadSav]

We used to do a visual shooting display using a well tuned bow, proper spined arrows, proper FOC, good helical offset vanes and a mix of broadheads from perfect alignment to almost 5 degrees bent.  At 80 yards they all grouped together.  Spin testing is good for the mind, but proper tuned bow/arrow is good for flight.

Have you numbered your arrows to see if the same arrow is doing the same thing each time?

Likely a combination of things such as weak spine plus cheap Easton all carbon arrows, tight string fit plus imported nocks, or cam tune plus creeping.  Can also be mental when shooting multiple spot targets like Vegas or 5 Spot.

[Band]

Have you numbered your arrows to see if the same arrow is doing the same thing each time?

Yes.  Arrow #1 is grouping well with multiple shots, arrow #2 is grouping well with multiple shots, and so on.  But arrow #1's grouping is in a different location that arrow #2's grouping.

Likely a combination of things such as weak spine plus cheap Easton all carbon arrows, tight string fit plus imported nocks, or cam tune plus creeping.

"Cheap Easton carbon arrows" is what I suspect might be the culprit.  I think they are the right spine for my setup, and as I said, they all group together when using field points, but I wonder if the quality of these arrows is such that they don't all flex the same way which causes the broadhead to catch air resistance differently and fly off course?  If that is the problem, could lining up the broadheads all the same (i.e. one blade straight up) help resolve the problem?  I could buy a better set of arrows but I'm not sure I want to do that unless/until I find out for sure that is the problem.

My bow setup:
Diamond Outlaw bow set to 60 lbs. (high speed rating)
Trophy Ridge Revolution (fall away) rest
(340) Easton Carbon Raider arrows with 4" offset vanes
D-loop, mechanical release

[D-Rock425]

I'd blame the bow.

[RadSav]

Have you numbered your arrows to see if the same arrow is doing the same thing each time?

Yes.  Arrow #1 is grouping well with multiple shots, arrow #2 is grouping well with multiple shots, and so on.  But arrow #1's grouping is in a different location that arrow #2's grouping.

Likely a combination of things such as weak spine plus cheap Easton all carbon arrows, tight string fit plus imported nocks, or cam tune plus creeping.

"Cheap Easton carbon arrows" is what I suspect might be the culprit.

I think in that case BABackcountryBwhntr is probably right.  Even arrows with spline issues can be made to group together if you rotate nocks.  Just takes time and patience.

Of course arrow rest choice could make it difficult if not a fall away.

[pd]

RadSav & others, this stuff just baffles me.  I have had a bow for < 1 year, and the whole arrow issue is too much for my feeble mind.  Is "tuning a bow" something that I can just hand off to an expert, and get it done in an hour or two?  In such case, I would pay to have it done, to have someone show me the right spine, etc.

For those of you who are really passionate about your bows and arrow selection, that is great, but I am not sure I have time for this.  My question is simply, "Can money solve this problem?" 

(By the way, I am in Kitsap county, and good, quality bow shops are not even close.)

[Band]

I really like this bow but with so many possible variables to broadhead grouping problems I may ultimately end up going back to my other bow that has no such problems.  But first I'll try rotating the nocks to see if the situation improves.  Thanks, guys, appreciate the help as always.

[Jake T]

RadSav & others, this stuff just baffles me.  I have had a bow for < 1 year, and the whole arrow issue is too much for my feeble mind.  Is "tuning a bow" something that I can just hand off to an expert, and get it done in an hour or two?  In such case, I would pay to have it done, to have someone show me the right spine, etc.

For those of you who are really passionate about your bows and arrow selection, that is great, but I am not sure I have time for this.  My question is simply, "Can money solve this problem?" 

(By the way, I am in Kitsap county, and good, quality bow shops are not even close.)

I wouldn't think so.  Part of tuning your bow is tuning it to you and all the little nuances you do when shooting.  Could be things you aren't even aware of.  Somebody else could get you close but it's always better to do it yourself.

[nw_bowhunter]

turn the knocks and I bet that fixes the issue.

How much are you suppose to turn the knocks?

[RadSav]

turn the knocks and I bet that fixes the issue.

How much are you suppose to turn the knocks?

You are generally trying to get the odd arrows to move over to the arrow that is grouping closest to your field points.  So, say your field points and #1 broadhead arrow are shooting at 12:00, your #2 broadhead is at 3:00, #3 is at 6:00 and your #4 is at 9:00.  You would take your #2 arrow and place it on the string, then take a Sharpie and make a mark at 3:00 on the shaft.  Then rotate that mark so it is located at 12:00.  Similarly #3 you would rotate a 6:00 mark to 12:00 and #4 would rotate a 9:00 mark to 12:00.

There will be plenty of fine tuning to do after doing this, but it should get you very close.  Often times close enough for government work hunting   Usually your field point arrows are exhibiting the same basic variations just to a much smaller degree.  If you are not a tournament class shooter you likely will not notice it with the field points.  But when the broadhead goes on and the spline orientation variances are magnified by the planning surface of the blades...then you notice it.

This is why, even with top quality arrows, it is a good idea to number each arrow.  A fine point Sharpie is usually all it takes to mark a light colored vane or a wrap.  Then as you practice make note of where each numbered shaft is impacting consistently.  BUT...it is important to shoot that arrow at different spots to make sure the variance is not a mental deviation by optical spot orientation.

[stromdiddily]

 

I would add that if you're going to shoot broadheads and field points at the same spot...shoot the broadheads first 

[Band]

Great nock orientation explanation Rad, that should save a lot of effort with the helter-skelter method I was going to use!

[RadSav]

I really like this bow but with so many possible variables to broadhead grouping problems I may ultimately end up going back to my other bow that has no such problems. 

I really doubt it is the bow.  Sure the higher speed has a little something to do with it being less forgiving.  And one may be better tuned than the other.  The old Reflex may even be an easier bow to shoot.  But, repeatable shotgun scatter rarely has to do with the bow.  If impacts were consistently random than we could look at cam tune and draw length combined with possible breakdown in form.  But when results repeat with consistency like this it is rarely ever the bow.

Would sort of be like blaming the car for riding rough with out of balance tires.  The car is fine.  And the tires may be fine as well.  They just need a little attention.

[LeviD1]

I recommend paying a good shop to tune your bow with you there not just let them do it and hand it back to you. I love the shop I go to. Got my bow all tuned up a few weeks ago and shoots like a dream. I was kind of having the same problems as you that's why I took it in. My arrow flight just was not very consistent at least as much as I would like it. They would be all over as yours are. Nothing crazy but noticeable. My cams needed shimmed and rest adjusted. I get my bow tuned every year. Things stretch over time and change. Also make sure you are knocking your arrows exactly the same and no fletch is hitting anywhere. As stated before if you dont have a good drop away rest I would pick one of those up to.

[bowhunterforever]

I recommend paying a good shop to tune your bow with you there not just let them do it and hand it back to you. I love the shop I go to. Got my bow all tuned up a few weeks ago and shoots like a dream. I was kind of having the same problems as you that's why I took it in. My arrow flight just was not very consistent at least as much as I would like it. They would be all over as yours are. Nothing crazy but noticeable. My cams needed shimmed and rest adjusted. I get my bow tuned every year. Things stretch over time and change. Also make sure you are knocking your arrows exactly the same and no fletch is hitting anywhere. As stated before if you dont have a good drop away rest I would pick one of those up to.

What shop do you use?

[LeviD1]

I recommend paying a good shop to tune your bow with you there not just let them do it and hand it back to you. I love the shop I go to. Got my bow all tuned up a few weeks ago and shoots like a dream. I was kind of having the same problems as you that's why I took it in. My arrow flight just was not very consistent at least as much as I would like it. They would be all over as yours are. Nothing crazy but noticeable. My cams needed shimmed and rest adjusted. I get my bow tuned every year. Things stretch over time and change. Also make sure you are knocking your arrows exactly the same and no fletch is hitting anywhere. As stated before if you dont have a good drop away rest I would pick one of those up to.

What shop do you use?

Whitetail Plus in Deer Park, WA. Greg the owner is an awesome guy. Never tries to sell you something you dont need and knows a ton. I have been going there for 3-4 years now and wont tank my bow anywhere else. The first time I went there he spent probably an hour with me giving me tipsand showing me how to shoot my bow better at no charge just because he is a great guy. In turn I dont ever shop around and only buy my archery equipment from him cause he has fare prices anyways and I want him to stay in business forever!

[TriggerMike]

You should do the modified French tune then broadhead tune it for the final. There's a really informative and descriptive thread on Archery Talk that explains the tuning process, I believed it's Stickied at the top as well. Once you tune it, your field tips and broadheads should be hitting in the same spot.

[TriggerMike]

Found it. It's on page 3 (on my phone- tapatalk). Modified French Tune. Also take a look at Walk back tuning, which I believe is on the page before.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1334651

[LeviD1]

Oh also, since Ive been tuned, my field tips, shuttle t's and schwacker heads all hit the exact same. Im glad cause I want to carry both broadheads in my quiver this year. Excited to try out my schwacker expandables!

[Webfoot]

If I marked my shafts and then rotated nock position to line up the shafts then the fletches would not be lined up to clear my rest. Am I correct?

John

[RadSav]

If I marked my shafts and then rotated nock position to line up the shafts then the fletches would not be lined up to clear my rest. Am I correct?

If you do not have a good fall away rest that would be correct.  I know some guys that will wax their shafts before applying heat shrink fletching.  That way they can rotate the vanes as well.  Then once the shafts are tuned they mark the shaft, strip the vanes and fletch properly.  I have never done this myself so I'm not sure how easy it is to rotate the shrink tubing. 

Of course you can always shoot Carbon Express or Easton ACC and never have to worry about rotating for groups

[swashington2128]

PD, I am a Kitsap county person also and have been shooting for about two years but with no luck on the hunting front yet. If you are interested in shooting send me a message. Always easier to learn in pairs.

As to the bow shop, there is one I have in mind but keep in mind their goal is to make money. The best thing is to spend time at the range and ask questions. I have learned a lot from guys at the range as most people are more than willing to give you some information. My first time shooting it took about three arrows before one guy stepped in and helped me out. I think it was more from disgust from my last of form than anything else. But it helped!

[Band]

turn the knocks and I bet that fixes the issue.

How much are you suppose to turn the knocks?

You are generally trying to get the odd arrows to move over to the arrow that is grouping closest to your field points.  So, say your field points and #1 broadhead arrow are shooting at 12:00, your #2 broadhead is at 3:00, #3 is at 6:00 and your #4 is at 9:00.  You would take your #2 arrow and place it on the string, then take a Sharpie and make a mark at 3:00 on the shaft.  Then rotate that mark so it is located at 12:00.  Similarly #3 you would rotate a 6:00 mark to 12:00 and #4 would rotate a 9:00 mark to 12:00.

There will be plenty of fine tuning to do after doing this, but it should get you very close.  Often times close enough for government work hunting   Usually your field point arrows are exhibiting the same basic variations just to a much smaller degree.  If you are not a tournament class shooter you likely will not notice it with the field points.  But when the broadhead goes on and the spline orientation variances are magnified by the planning surface of the blades...then you notice it.

Finally got a chance to rotate nocks per Rad's directions and it worked!!  More fine tuning ahead of me but those directions do exactly as advertised.  Thanks, Rad!

[eastfork]

I kinda had this same problem a few years back. I was shooting some GT hunter, I couldn't get my broadheads to group at 80 yards, switched the carbon express select and away went my problems........

[RadSav]

Finally got a chance to rotate nocks per Rad's directions and it worked!!  More fine tuning ahead of me but those directions do exactly as advertised.

Good to hear

[Band]

I kinda had this same problem a few years back. I was shooting some GT hunter, I couldn't get my broadheads to group at 80 yards, switched the carbon express select and away went my problems........

At the price of those arrows I would hope they would do my dishes and laundry too.

Are there mid-priced arrows on the market that are known for spine consistency?

[Chesapeake]

I shoot Easton axis arrows. I find the "spine" of the arrow prior to building it. Like a fishing rod builder would find the "spine" of a rod before building it. I flex the arrow against my thigh and roll it while flexed. Doing this you can feel it get stiff and weak as it rotates. This is the same thing you find with Radsav's  turn the knock method.

I then orient the stiff side so that all arrows are the same in this regard. I put it to the cock feather, but that don't matter as long as they are all the same.

Even after all this fun, some arrows just wont play nice. They get relegated to practice arrows and blunt arrows for trashing trying for grouse. 

I've also found that if an arrow impacts something hard, like missing the bales and hitting a 4x4 ect.... that the arrow may then no longer group with all the others even though no visual difference can be seen. Again, its a blunt arrow after that.

I tune my bow using field points and some Magnus 2 blade broad heads. These broad heads are like sails, so if they hit with field points than any of the small profile blade heads will hit as well. I shoot a Hoyt so get to do all the cam lean tuning, ect... Its a process, but once done, its oh so nice.





 

[RadSav]

Are there mid-priced arrows on the market that are known for spine consistency?

Victory V-Force and most of the Black Eagle shafts fit that.  Beman ICS are hit and miss - One dozen is perfect the next dozen might have four bad.  But I do like Beman quite well. 

In the mid-price market I'd give the edge to Victory myself.

xXx has spent a good bit of time shooting both the Black Eagle and the Victory.  Way more time with them than I have.  Might want to drop him a PM or call the shop to chat and get pricing.

[Band]

Not a bad price for those Victory arrows.  I'll look into them a little more, thanks!

[swashington2128]

I've used the Victory V-Force arrows for a couple of years now. Very consistent even after hundreds of shots into the hay bails. Switching between field points and either fixed or mechanical broadheads has not made a difference in point of aim.

I can attest to the fact that they will splinter when they hit a branch at 30 yards. Never saw that sucker.

Victory has my vote for inexpensive and still quality.

[scoutdog346]

Turn your knocks

[Band]

Likely a combination of things such as weak spine plus cheap Easton all carbon arrows..

This was the root of the problem!!  I picked up a dozen Victory VForce Sport arrows per your recommendation and had a shooting session today.  Without even touching the rest or rotating nocks for fine tuning yet they are already grouping my broad heads far better than I've been able to achieve during the past 2 years of endless frustration!

I used to recommend cheap carbons to new archers to get started but you won't hear that from me again!  Sometimes saving a buck is a good idea and sometimes it's not!

[RadSav]

Sounds like someone is going to be eating fresh tenderloin come September!  Glad to hear everything is coming together

How is the backup bow shooting?  Did it tune up ok with the new threads and arrows?

[Band]

How is the backup bow shooting?  Did it tune up ok with the new threads and arrows?

Im going to try the new arrows on the back up bow this afternoon so I'll let you know.  Oh, and I bought and installed that cable guard you recommended to keep the new "threads" looking and performing like a champ.

[scoutdog346]

Are the blade to fletch alignments the same orientation?

I dont get how "blade to fletch" can do anything?  I understand y it maks sence.  Wind/air moving over the blades and fletchings and stuff but i don't think it really works like that. Its not like the exact air molecules and resistance air goes over the broadhead and that same air is going to pass by the fletching  It seems a bit like what i call " cartoon physics"  but it must be true because everyone talkes about it.

[Band]

How is the backup bow shooting?  Did it tune up ok with the new threads and arrows?

Im going to try the new arrows on the back up bow this afternoon so I'll let you know.  Oh, and I bought and installed that cable guard you recommended to keep the new "threads" looking and performing like a champ.

Wow, having lots of adventures with many hours of shooting and bow adjustments over the past several days.  I was doing both bows at the same time but I put down the backup so I can get my primary bow tuned first.  Major problems I have tackled are getting the drop away rest timed after I found I was getting a little vane contact and changing my draw hand position based on the fact at I've lost a fair amount of weight and my "less chubby" face had thrown off my accuracy.

No matter what I do my broadhead arrows hit left of the field points but I finally found a rest adjustment that gives me excellent arrow flight and is only off 2" at 40 yards.  Just as I decided to call it good and simply adjust my sight to match the broadheads before the season starts I shot another batch of arrows and had another incidence of vane contact that bent the rest arm!

I'm going to see about getting a replacement rest and pick up the backup bow starting tomorrow to see about getting it tuned.  The new arrows are definitely flying better than the old but there is still an issue I have yet to figure out.  I'm hoping to have an easier time with the other bow.

[scoutdog346]

I would think u woukd clear the rest no matter where ur fletching is.  If u look.at a bow shot in super slowmotion then u will c y it should. (fall away rest)  Idk 4 sure though... mine is that way.

[Band]

I'm going to see about getting a replacement rest...

Kudos to Trophy Ridge.  All it took was a phone call and short explanation of what happened to their customer service department and they have a new rest on the way.  No charge.