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Author Topic: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016  (Read 10216 times)

Offline lamrith

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New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« on: December 10, 2015, 02:55:40 PM »
New hunter myself, in my 2nd year hunting.  I have been pursuing archery, gotten close a few times but no ethical shot opportunities, but ohhhh man is the rush addictive working in so close!
My 13yrd old (today) son has started asking about going hunting with me.  I have been hesitant because I have not harvested an animal and have very little in the way of hunting tactics/knowledge to share with him.  Hunting is hard enough without added frustration for a young hunter of being shown how by someone that is new themselves... That said I want to start working and moving forward to get him ready to hunt next year.  I know he will need to go thru hunter safety class, I am a member at a local range that holds classes every year so that is not a big deal to get taken care of, and range time is also easy.
 
Weapon - He has already said he does not want to do archery which makes sense to me so that he does not have to get as close so the chances of success are much higher so he can make a harvest and gain experience.  I have had him to the range before, he shoots decently with the 22lr obviously being his favorite, he has also shot my 223 and 6.5grendel.  I also have a 300blk and and working toward buying a 308 bolt gun myself.  I am setup to reload for all four calibers.  My son is getting tall fast but is slight of build and recoil will be an issue so 308 I know is out of the question.
  • The problem is they are all AR platform and for him I think a bolt action would be best for a new hunter?
  • Any recommendation on caliber?  I could see 300blk bolt gun as a good shorter range option for deer.  Being a new hunter I would not think it is advisable to be taking shots much past 150yrds anyway?  I have seen 7-08mm, 243 and a few others thrown around lately as well.  I have also considered having a Bolt gun built in Grendel for myself, but hoped to settle on a more standard big game caliber though I think it would be a good middle ground for him and me.  I am thinking deer would be 1st goal, but would like "enough" gun for elk if he takes that step so it would be nice to have something with reach and power for down the road a few years.
Harvest -Call me old school, but to me if you cannot at least field dress your harvest you should not be taking game.  It is a matter of respect between hunter and prey.  Hunting is is not about killing, it is taking game to put food on the table respectfully.  Not having that knowledge or knowing if I could do it kept me from attempting to hunt for years until an out of state family member let me be spectator on a hunt and was involved with the field dressing.  I have no concerns about my ability to gut and process and animal, but since I have not taken one myself so I have no way to show him first hand the big picture and what is involved once you have your animal down and the real work begins.
  • How do you pros recommend I get things rolling with him in terms learning and understanding what is involved once the animal is down?
  • I could show him the many Youtube videos out there on various methods and see how he does?  This is probably my biggest concern because I know that not everyone can handle the site and smell of dressing and processing a down animal to get it out of the field.

Seasons - Being new myself I am not familiar with the draws here in WA, I have just done OTC Archery each year.  I have specifically avoided Modern season due to the stories I have seen here and also heard 1st hand from numerous fellow hunters.  I do not want to take my son out into that Chaos but he will be hunting with modern so...?
  • I see in the regs there are youth hunts, are they usually segregated from other modern hunts, or is it just that they let youth take Does as well?
  • Any recommendations on hunt to put in for that might not have high general season hunter volume for a quieter hunt his 1st year or two?  I would really like to stay out of the zoo, pumpkin patch madness with him.

Any help or guidance would be much appreciated either here so others can learn or Via PM.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 01:24:31 PM by lamrith »

Offline Shooting Stix

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 03:01:07 PM »
Book one of my hunts to get you started and have some success with your bow to grow experience and confidence in the field
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Online Bob33

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 03:34:25 PM »
I am setup to reload for all four calibers.  My son is getting tall fast but is slight of build and recoil will be an issue so 308 I know is out of the question.
If you reload, you can make some 308 loads that will be as mild as anything else.

My son was shooting my 300 Win Mag at age 10, with mild ammunition.
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Offline steen

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 03:58:34 PM »
Since he is hunting modern you can concentrate totally on him. If he shoots one before you harvest you can learn to field dress together. I'd rather field dress for someone than see them quit hunting. (I field dressed and dragged my nieces deer down the hill and she ground up my hamburger, for me, that was a great trade!) Since you live on the Westside there are a lot of places in the hills that shouldn't be too crowded, especially in timber. Find a little open spot that has deer sign, then sit and watch it. Rain is good hunting weather and should not be skipped! Don't ask him to shoot off hand but use shooting sticks till he is more confident. Be very patient with missed opportunities and missed shots they are all part of learning. He will remember the misses and process what he did wrong then change. Learning how to process your meat takes practice. You can ask a fellow hunter that lives near you to help. Someone is always ready to be part of the action if they have time.  Good luck next fall!

Online lokidog

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 05:21:36 PM »
I have to agree with Bob33, the .308 should be fine for him.  My second deer was with a .308 at age 13, and I was on the smaller side, though it was a semi-auto. But as mentioned, reduce recoil loads are common and would be a good starting point for him.

Other than maybe being on the heavy side, I also think that the big game legal ARs would be an acceptable alternative.

Offline TheSkyBuster

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 05:51:47 PM »

  • Any recommendations on hunt to put in for that might not have high general season hunter volume for a quieter hunt his 1st year or two? 
Put him in for everything you can afford.  His chances of drawing a WA moose permit are much better than yours.   What unit(s) do you hunt deer in? is there any special permits in that area like youth antlerless deer?
A bolt action .308 WIN is a great beginner rifle.  Since you already reload .300BLK you probably have some light weight 30 caliber bullets kicking around.    I started my girlfriend off hunting deer with a .308WIN, I loaded a 125gr Sierra at about 2500 FPS and over a year or so I worked it up to a pretty hot 165gr load for elk.   She never seemed to notice the increase in recoil. 



Online lokidog

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 06:10:55 PM »
The funny thing with kids starting hunting is that many people will start them out on a 20g but think a rifle is too much recoil.

                                                 Rifle weight     Recoil energy     Recoil velocity

.243 Win. (100 at 2960)            7.5                   8.8                     8.7
.260 Rem. (120 at 2860)          7.5                  13.0                    10.6
6.5mm Grendel (120 at 2600)    7.5                  8.9                     8.8
.308 Win. (150 at 2800)            7.5                  15.8                     11.7
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910)    8.0                  17.6                     11.9
20 gauge, 2.75" (7/8 at 1200) 6.5                  16.1
20 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1220)    6.5                  21.0

Online Jolten

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 06:20:30 PM »
If you and your son ever make it to Yakima let me know and I'll let your son shoot my Savage Axis .243 so he can tell you if it feels good to him.
The best equipment in the world is useless to the idiot who doesn't understand it.

Offline ckr

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 06:23:25 PM »
The 308 is a awesome round for kids.  My 10 year old shoots his Ruger American compact loaded with 150s going at 2500.  It's a nice mild load.  He started out with much softer rounds and we have worked up to this.  Good luck

Offline SemperFidelis97

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 06:28:53 PM »
If you hunt locally, and harvest one you can bring it by my place I can walk you through everything, pm me if you need a contact number.  I would look at a youth modern whitetail doe hunt in one of the eastern units for his first deer, permission should be pretty easy to get for a kid, and in allot of places it can be a pretty easy hunt to at least get him started.  My kids started with a .243, and both started pretty young.  We have never had to track an animal they have shot, they have all went down instantly, and they have taken quite a few over the years.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 06:42:08 PM »
7mm-08 and it is made in a Vanguard Youth the last time I checked. 

I had a friend who had a 243 and a 7mm-08 that were identical and he loaded up light loads for the 243 and his kids were so comfortable and proficient with it that when he substituted full on 243 and 7mm-08 loads when they first started hunting (he snuck it to the range and resighted the scope) they took a deer and one of them even an elk and neither was so much the wiser.  They knew not that the recoil was going to be heavier when they shot an animal and neither even noticed it.  Funny how that happens when shooting game. 

He said that if he didn't have the 243 it would not have made any difference, he was able to load 7mm-08 loads that were almost as mild as the light 243s. 

I know there is a hands on class on butchering hogs on Vashon Island.  Two weeks later they have a sausage making class.  I don't know who they are, but there is nothing like getting some experience taking care of meat in a controlled classroom environment.  I can't help you w/the specifics but I know the class exists. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 06:49:44 PM by JDHasty »

Offline lamrith

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 07:58:07 PM »
Wow guys, that is awesome info!  I will try and hit some of these in order..

308 - DOH!  I had totally forgot that they even make factory low recoil loads for 308!  Makes perfect sense now that I think about it.  I do not have any real light bullets for the 300blk, but I have lots of 150grn bullets and will look into low recoil loads for that if possible.  I reload for it, but do not currently have a 308 rifle in the arsenal, good reason to buy another one!

Grendel - My AR loaded out with heavy glass is 9.5#, so a touch heavy, but as the chart shows the recoil is extremely light ANND I already have it!!  I was just honestly uncertain about a young inexperience hunter and a semi auto.  Post shot excitement etc with another round already chambered, but training can work on that, he does have good trigger discipline so far.  I could also just have the one round in chamber and no mag in the gun, so a second round is not automatically chambered..

I have a tripod with U block to shoot off of, so he can have a solid front rest too.

Processing - I really appreciate the offers to help, I may take you guys up on it just to learn more!  I am not worried about me being able to process what we take to get it in coolers and home for finish work.  What I don't want is that he shoots it and does nothing more, he has to help and take part in getting it in the freezer and was curious how others have handled that.  I like the idea of if not help field dress at least help make the burger.
 :tup:

I know a spot this side that holds lots of deer but I think during modern it gets pretty busy.  It is where I am hunting late archery trying to get it done, was out in rain last week and everything was hiding in deep trees not coming out, but area was loaded with sign.  I have seen deer but only does.  There is a youth antlerless hunt, only 5 permits though and avg points tells me 3yrs to get drawn for it.  The neighboring unit also has one at the same time with slightly higher odds, I will ask a friend that lives there about huntable land. 

To put him in for hunts does he need to have Hunters Ed completed already, or does that come later when we actually go to buy the tags?  Do We have to put in as a group so double the app fee or is it just him?  I have put in for multiseason so hopefully drawn and am free to hunt any time.  I do not put in for draws normally so the entire process is new to me..

Online lokidog

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 08:16:31 PM »
He would need a Wild Id # to apply, but that can be gotten with a fishing license.  He could probably apply for tags other than elk and deer w/o the HS class, but I don't know about deer.

Online Bob33

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 08:40:39 PM »
He would need a Wild Id # to apply, but that can be gotten with a fishing license.  He could probably apply for tags other than elk and deer w/o the HS class, but I don't know about deer.
He will need a license to apply for deer and elk.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 08:55:14 PM »
Quote
Harvest -Call me old school, but to me if you cannot at least field dress your harvest you should not be taking game.  It is a matter of respect between hunter and prey.  Hunting is is not about killing, it is taking game to put food on the table respectfully.  Not having that knowledge or knowing if I could do it kept me from attempting to hunt for years until an out of state family member let me be spectator on a hunt and was involved with the field dressing.  That said I have not taken one myself so I have no way to show him first hand the big picture and what is involved once you have your animal down and the real work begins. 
•How do you pros recommend I get things rolling with him in terms learning and understanding what is involved once the animal is down?
•I could show him the many Youtube videos out there on various methods and see how he does?  This is probably my biggest concern because I know that not everyone can handle the site and smell of dressing and processing a down animal to get it out of the field.

Start with farm animals ahead of time. Search for a meat rabbit grower ahead of time and take your son to process some rabbits.  I've had people ask if they could come out to my place on rabbit butchering day and bring kids.  It's a lot less intimidating than looking at a deer laying there in the bush a mile from the truck or more.  A deer isn't so much different than a rabbit, and if your son say's "oh, this is just a great big rabbit! " then the battle is half over there.

A quick craigslist search brings up lot's of ads for meat rabbits, here is one that grabbed my attention
http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/grd/5310209895.html
We are a small family farm and we raise New Zealand rabbits for meat, for show and for pets.   That tells me they butcher on the farm and might not be adverse to selling you some meat rabbits and showing you how to process them, or you could take them home and do it there.  If you really wanted some practice on an animal that is almost exactly like a deer find a meat goat farm.  It's better to get your hands bloody under controlled conditions than learn it all when it's raining, cold and miles from a truck.

I should be out hunting lions, thanks WDFW

Offline kschadel

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 11:04:59 AM »
This is my second year hunting and first year filling my tag and harvesting. I was super nervous about the smell, but it honestly wasn't that bad. I met a gentleman on the woman's forum and went hunting with him this year. He has harvested the last three years and was able to show me the ropes. I watched numerous youtube videos to get acclimated to what I would experience in the field. Just getting familiar with what it looks like is a huge help. Then if it's possible to harvest with someone that's done it before, that helps too. Bottom line, don't be afraid to just dive in. The biggest thing for me with harvesting is that you have to be careful with your first cuts. It's awful if you nick the bladder, bowels, or gut sack, so make shallow cuts. There are a couple ways to harvest, so check them out. But if you can go with someone that's done it before, I highly recommend it. The guy I went with would process one quarter and then I would do the other.

Bottom line, have fun and dive in! It's a blast!

Offline James E

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 03:28:36 PM »
My son started out with a .243 at an early age. I would stay away from youth rifles. He will out grow them.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 03:50:44 PM »
My son started out with a .243 at an early age. I would stay away from youth rifles. He will out grow them.

The Vanguard/Howa full size stocks are for sale all over the internet for <$50.  I think they come in a package deal and people sell them.  That is another reason I mentioned the Vanguard up thread.   

Offline lamrith

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 07:45:14 PM »
really great info folks, it is helping me bigtime. :tup:

Gun wise I am leaning very strongly toward working on training and having him use my AR.  The adjustable stock makes it very easy to adjust for him and the grendel is very light recoil with plenty of power for big game.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 08:58:07 PM »
really great info folks, it is helping me bigtime. :tup:

Gun wise I am leaning very strongly toward working on training and having him use my AR.  The adjustable stock makes it very easy to adjust for him and the grendel is very light recoil with plenty of power for big game.

Very good reasoning regarding the adj stock.  I had a bunch of loose parts in my "bag of tricks," including a light weight barrel and adj stock - so I put together an AR for my six-year old to shoot. 

Re: the 6.5 Grendel, it has marginally enough power for big game.  It is just fine IF you hit them where they need to be hit (right in near the middle of the big part).  But then throw in the FACT that you have no experience blood trailing big game. 

You really want to have a big game animal leaking buckets of blood with a double lung hit ESPECIALLY in western Washington's rain and our heavy foliage.

Our ungulates, black tail deer and especially elk, have notoriously high tenacity of life.  They are tough customers and being DRT (dead right there) is the exception.  Do a search and read about what I recommend for slug gun hunting blacktails and you will see that I am all about a 12 gage slug WHERE I HUNT because it will cause a LEAK that ANYONE can follow.   

I am saying 7mm-08 because it has enough energy, out where it counts, and enough oomph bullet i.e. weight and integrity, out where it counts, to shoot through if you don't get a piece of shoulder going in and break the game down DRT.  The 308 others recommend likewise. 

With that 6.5 Grendel you are starting with a 6.2x39 case and I have serious reservations regarding energy out where he might shoot.  If the range is close and bullet performance is what the bullet was designed to deliver at impact velocity, every thing MAY work out just fine.... may be.  But you guys need a big leak if everything does not work out as you planned and an entrance hole NEVER bleeds like an exit hole. 

I come up against this 6.5 Grendel/300 Blackout question often because so many new to the game hunters have ARs.  Yes, in the hands of an experienced hunter, they are viable options.  I think that they are championed because every one who hunts wants to see new hunters join our ranks though.   

My advice is:  if your family budget can absorb it, and it sounds like this is an option,  go afield with an honest to God big game rifle that the lad can comfortable handle the recoil from.   

Offline pd

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2015, 09:37:53 PM »
Regarding a good place to take your son deer hunting, although it is not my place to say this, that area behind RJ's place holds a bunch of deer, I can assure you of that.  It seems to me you need to do some negotiating with the wife (his, not yours).   :tup:

Good on you for doing this.  It is hard for a new hunter to teach another new hunter.  Learn together, stay together.
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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2015, 10:38:32 PM »
welcome and it's great your son want to join in the sport as well....  lot of good advice already given, but would like to add... ya might think Muzzy for your son..  more of a hard push then a kick, and a 50 cal loaded down with 55 grains of FF and patched roundball,  still has plenty of knockdown for deer, without bruising the sons shoulder..  plus even reloading, they are a lot cheeper to shoot then centerfire..

Offline JDHasty

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2015, 10:39:18 PM »
welcome and it's great your son want to join in the sport as well....  lot of good advice already given, but would like to add... ya might think Muzzy for your son..  more of a hard push then a kick, and a 50 cal loaded down with 55 grains of FF and patched roundball,  still has plenty of knockdown for deer, without bruising the sons shoulder..  plus even reloading, they are a lot cheeper to shoot then centerfire..

 :yeah:

Offline lamrith

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2015, 10:44:19 AM »
I HAVE, been thinking of adding a muzzy just to cover all 3 seasons...  so 50 over 54?

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Re: New hunter with Son wanting to start hunting in 2016
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2015, 10:54:59 AM »
Quote
Harvest -Call me old school, but to me if you cannot at least field dress your harvest you should not be taking game.  It is a matter of respect between hunter and prey.  Hunting is is not about killing, it is taking game to put food on the table respectfully.  Not having that knowledge or knowing if I could do it kept me from attempting to hunt for years until an out of state family member let me be spectator on a hunt and was involved with the field dressing.  That said I have not taken one myself so I have no way to show him first hand the big picture and what is involved once you have your animal down and the real work begins. 
•How do you pros recommend I get things rolling with him in terms learning and understanding what is involved once the animal is down?
•I could show him the many Youtube videos out there on various methods and see how he does?  This is probably my biggest concern because I know that not everyone can handle the site and smell of dressing and processing a down animal to get it out of the field.

Start with farm animals ahead of time. Search for a meat rabbit grower ahead of time and take your son to process some rabbits.  I've had people ask if they could come out to my place on rabbit butchering day and bring kids.  It's a lot less intimidating than looking at a deer laying there in the bush a mile from the truck or more.  A deer isn't so much different than a rabbit, and if your son say's "oh, this is just a great big rabbit! " then the battle is half over there.

A quick craigslist search brings up lot's of ads for meat rabbits, here is one that grabbed my attention
http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/grd/5310209895.html
We are a small family farm and we raise New Zealand rabbits for meat, for show and for pets.   That tells me they butcher on the farm and might not be adverse to selling you some meat rabbits and showing you how to process them, or you could take them home and do it there.  If you really wanted some practice on an animal that is almost exactly like a deer find a meat goat farm.  It's better to get your hands bloody under controlled conditions than learn it all when it's raining, cold and miles from a truck.

Really good idea.

If you fish. cleaning fish might be a great starting point. If you don't fish, consider starting. Plenty of practice cleaning "critters" of any kind helps and fish are probably easiest to start with.
"yoogle that on your google"

 

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