Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[Biggerhammer]

Ten inches behind the shoulder mid body with a vld from a .243 , or any  6.5 or 308 will flat destroy that elks lungs ....... same spot with a Barnes x out of my 30/378  just makes a pencil hole  due  to the extreme hi volocitys.  BOBCAT YOUR  vld statement is pretty ignorant  from a performance start point .

Actually your statement about the pencil hole with the Barnes due to the high velocity is ignorant. So what you're saying is that if you slowed the bullet down it would expand properly. That's wrong. Higher velocity will only cause it to expand more, not less.

You are clueless! I have persenaly watched a Mulie buck shot at 40 yards with a .338 Win Mag and a Barnes bullet. The buck hopped and trotted off to 100 yards and looked back. I put a 180gr Ballistic Tip from a 300 Weatherby magnum right were the neck meets the head. The hit was spectacular and messy. The .338 Barnes bullet combo went through him like butter. Pin holed him, you could hardly tell the entrance from the exit and very little blood shot. Straight through.

No, apparently it's you who's clueless.

So you're saying that 338 Barnes bullet that didn't expand at 40 yards would have expanded just fine at 400 after it had slowed down some? 

Go read a little more or try it yourself. You did mention math? Think velocity, distance , bullet contruction??? I'm sure you'll figure it out if you ask the question on the Long Range Hunting Forum.

[dontgetcrabs]

When I used to hunt black bears from tree stands I did deliberately shoot them in the shoulder.  I shot a 45/70 Marlin w/350 Hornaday RN and that did not mess up much meat. 

I did not always shoot for the shoulder, but one day I came up on a black bear at twenty yards and shot it straight through the heart with that 45/70 and the bear took off, ran thirty yards down a trail, made a hard right hand turn and went fifty yards down another trail loosing blood by the bucket.  Then I lost the trail and stood there wondering WTHeck.  I was standing by a five-foot diameter deadfall and when I looked on the other side the blood was there and the bear's butt was standing 40 yards away, in the middle of a trail not moving a muscle.  The bear had made a hard right hand turn and gone through a hole under the tree that you would have a hard time getting a basket ball through and died with leaves and crap pushed up in front of it's nose.  It was the darndest thing I had seen and as I came around that bear with a long piece of a tree branch held in my left hand against the fore end of my gun and poked him in the eye it hit me that that bear could have killed me before it died if it had come up the trail I was on.  Then I pushed it over and started working on it.  After that I started shooting them through a shoulder and into the chest.  It worked for me.  I had the bear down where I could go get a wheel barrel and didn't have to work my butt off and get cut to ribbons getting him back out of the back berries like my friends frequently had to do.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[bobcat]

Ten inches behind the shoulder mid body with a vld from a .243 , or any  6.5 or 308 will flat destroy that elks lungs ....... same spot with a Barnes x out of my 30/378  just makes a pencil hole  due  to the extreme hi volocitys.  BOBCAT YOUR  vld statement is pretty ignorant  from a performance start point .

Actually your statement about the pencil hole with the Barnes due to the high velocity is ignorant. So what you're saying is that if you slowed the bullet down it would expand properly. That's wrong. Higher velocity will only cause it to expand more, not less.

You are clueless! I have persenaly watched a Mulie buck shot at 40 yards with a .338 Win Mag and a Barnes bullet. The buck hopped and trotted off to 100 yards and looked back. I put a 180gr Ballistic Tip from a 300 Weatherby magnum right were the neck meets the head. The hit was spectacular and messy. The .338 Barnes bullet combo went through him like butter. Pin holed him, you could hardly tell the entrance from the exit and very little blood shot. Straight through.

No, apparently it's you who's clueless.

So you're saying that 338 Barnes bullet that didn't expand at 40 yards would have expanded just fine at 400 after it had slowed down some? 

Go read a little more or try it yourself. You did mention math? Think velocity, distance , bullet contruction??? I'm sure you'll figure it out if you ask the question on the Long Range Hunting Forum.

I don't need to read anything. Why don't you do some research on Barnes bullets. It's pretty basic- the faster they're going the better they expand. That's why I always recommend light for caliber Barnes bullets.

[Biggerhammer]

You or their web site?

[JDHasty]

We aren't taking about forest rats (Bears).

I was just saying that I have made a conscious decision to shoot an animal in the shoulder and had my reasons for doing so.  I liked to be able to walk a half mile to my vehicle and bring my wheel barrel right up next to them and then load them up and walk them back to the vehicle.

Shooting bears through the shoulders I have heard of. I honestly have never heard of shooting an elk through the shoulder on purpose. I would say this is not a good idea. I would like to hear an explanation for why this is ethical. I don't care if it makes it easier to pack out.

Never advocated it, but it happens frequently.  I'm with you in that it is not ideal and if I ever misplace a shot that ends up in the shoulder on an elk I want to have what I consider to be enough gun to close the deal.  I shot one, quartering away, and the bullet did wreck the offside shoulder after going through the liver and a lung.  But I was shooting for the lungs on that animal and that was the shot I had and it seemed like a pretty darn good decision to take that shot to me. 

[coachcw]

Barnes recommends 2000 fps to expand the x bullet . At 2500  to 2900 they work well ( but still not my number one choice or even top five )  but if you run them 3200 to 3400 they punch pin holes . I blew right thew a mule deer with one from a 30 378 at 200 yards then shot another at 500 yards that had great performance and dropped him in its tracks the exit hole was the size of my fist . At 200 it even took a rib out the front side . But again this is a AR thread  and I'm pretty sure most AR s arnt gonna push a x bullet that fast ....

[Karl Blanchard]

Stop it with your REAL WORLD observations!  Why don't you read a book or something.

[JDHasty]

I have no personal experience with the Barnes XBullet, but what impresses me is that when they strike at too high a velocity the petals break off before the bulllet penetrates to the vitals and the shank goes on through like a pencil.  Likewise the Nosler Partition when it hits at too high velocity the front end acts like a too soft coyote bullet that splashes in the ribs but doesn't penetrate the vitals, and you get a run off, but the shank of the Partition continues through without transferring much energy unless it hits major bone.

I have friends who have recovered the petals on Barnes XBullets on the side the bullet struck and that is what leads me to this conclusion.     

[bobcat]

Here's an interesting thread on 24 Hour Campfire on the subject of bullets going too fast to expand:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9484002/1

[Curly]

Too fast to expand? That is funny.

[Biggerhammer]

There's a place full of village idiots.

[jay.sharkbait]

[Boss .300 winmag]

Nice

[Biggerhammer]

AH HAHAHA!

It may be too deep for most.

[Karl Blanchard]