40 cal hype is over??

[jrebel]

I have seen a few articles lately that are really bashing the 40 cal pistol.  Was it just a fad that has come and gone, or is still a great round?  What are your thoughts?  I personally love my ruger sr40c and it shoots really well and has very manageable recoil.  Also...I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any 9mm, 40 or 45 so that is kind of a mute point in my mind. 

[jackelope]

I'm not sure how it could be just a fad. It still packs all the punch it used to. I think what's happening is modern 9mm ammo is getting better, which is downsizing the need for something bigger/better.

That's like saying the .30-06 used to be good at killing deer but isn't as good anymore since the 6.5x47 Lapua was created.

[jrebel]

I'm not sure how it could be just a fad. It still packs all the punch it used to. I think what's happening is modern 9mm ammo is getting better, which is downsizing the need for something bigger/better.

That's like saying the .30-06 used to be good at killing deer but isn't as good anymore since the 6.5x47 Lapua was created.

So one argument could be more effective ammo with less / more manageable recoil in the 9mm?  I don't think people are doubting the effectiveness of the round, just seems to not be all the hype.  A lot of law enforcement agencies are going away from it (or at least it appears that way).   

[Pnwrider]

With 9mm more common and less expensive in addition to round development as stated above, I see no need to have one in the safe. Plus at this point I'm trying to consolidate caliber so when the next ammo scare/shortage takes place I won't have to worry.


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[Crunchy]

Ive carried and shot a 40cal for the last 20 plus years.  Have maybe 4 cases or more of 40 cal ammo stock piled at this point.  I am switching to a 9mm, but not because it has any real ballistic advantage.  Its not the caliber of the bullet that kills people, its the placement. 

[mkcj]

 9mm plus + packing everything that a 40 did at a little lower price per round. 40, It never was a fad and will always be around.

[carpsniperg2]

Like said the 40 will always be around. I like the 40 and I think its a great middle of the road cartridge.

[300rum]

I think in 10-20 years it has a real good chance of being remembered as a fad.  There will be a following and there will be a box of shells on the shelf at the gun store but gun companies aren't going to support it like they used to. 

[Henrydog]

I carried a .40 Smith in college 25 years ago. At the time I liked the idea of a heavy 180gr bullet with out the complications of maintaining a 1911.   

The Gun was a pile of junk and ammo was pricey.  I traded both in for a Ruger Sp101 in .357mag, and I have never missed the .40 

I think the .40 will end up like 10mm, some guys will swear by it and companies will make guns for it but it will not have a huge market share.   

[timberfaller]

Two reasons I never got into .40 cal.

One, Ammo to pricey
Two, the need for "extra" reloading tooling.

But that's just me!   If it aint broke, don't try and fix it!

[The scout]

I don't think it's fad, but with some really good 9mm ammo choice's, that's a good alternative, also if you like shooting the "heavys" why not get a 45 and shoot the 180's and still have the option of shooting real heavys.

[superdown]

I carried a .40 Smith in college 25 years ago. At the time I liked the idea of a heavy 180gr bullet with out the complications of maintaining a 1911.   

The Gun was a pile of junk and ammo was pricey.  I traded both in for a Ruger Sp101 in .357mag, and I have never missed the .40 

I think the .40 will end up like 10mm, some guys will swear by it and companies will make guns for it but it will not have a huge market share.   

What complications are there to maintaining a 1911? I have owned carried and shot my Kimber 1911 for just shy of 11yrs now and haven't run into any complications or actually had to replace anything.Honest question not being a smart @ss.



I have never owned a .40 but i did have have a 10mm g20 for awhile never warmed up to it but i do have 9mm's and 45's and every time someone brings up the point about ammo technology getting better for the 9mm i think well those advancements are being applied to all of the popular carry rounds so everything kind of stays the same across the board.

[Henrydog]

Oh I get what you are saying Superdown. I'm not knocking 1911's, I was knocking my POS S&W.  I was much younger and dumber.  I had a smith sigma (copy of a glock without the quality) remove the slide and the spring and that was it.  "Easy" to clean.  But it stovepiped a lot. 

[fish vacuum]

Oh I get what you are saying Superdown. I'm not knocking 1911's, I was knocking my POS S&W.  I was much younger and dumber.  I had a smith sigma (copy of a glock without the quality) remove the slide and the spring and that was it.  "Easy" to clean.  But it stovepiped a lot.

Are you saying your Sigma was a 1911?

[Henrydog]

No sir, I am saying the Sigma was a POS, and when I was young and dumb I thought it would be ezier to maintain than a 1911. 

[Alchase]

I have seen a few articles lately that are really bashing the 40 cal pistol.  Was it just a fad that has come and gone, or is still a great round?  What are your thoughts?  I personally love my ruger sr40c and it shoots really well and has very manageable recoil.  Also...I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any 9mm, 40 or 45 so that is kind of a mute point in my mind. 

The round has not changed it is still 40 cal, so it must be writers who are the fad, LOL.

History, remember when most of them said the 9mm was not a sufficient handgun round.
Or when 10mm was their pinnacle, now out of favor.
I quit reading most handgun magazines because of this type of article. They seem to try and create controversy where none should exist.
I love the new technology stuff, their opinion pieces are as bad as the Seattle Times, LOL.

[jbauch357]

40sw was created in the 80's purely because FBI couldn't qualify with the 10mm pistols they were issued when 9mm designs of that era proved to be insufficient for hostile/hardened engagements.  They needed to come up with something better than the 9mm offerings at the time but not as powerful as 10mm that had too much recoil for FBI desk jockies to become proficient with.  Now we're at the point where 9mm design/power has improved considerably and 10mm is growing in popularity/availability, there is no reason to shoot .40 when hot 9mm almost matches it and proper 10mm demolishes it. 

FWIW I'm a 9mm and 10mm slut, both are great rounds and different enough to have major benefits over one another depending on circumstance - 40sw is the middle ground that doesn't really excel in any department.

[jay.sharkbait]

I think if people spent more  time shooting and studying anatomy this topic wouldn't come up all the time.

[headshot5]

I think if people spent more  time shooting and studying anatomy this topic wouldn't come up all the time.

 

[Alchase]

Now we're at the point where 9mm design/power has improved considerably and 10mm is growing in popularity/availability, there is no reason to shoot .40 when hot 9mm almost matches it and proper 10mm demolishes it.

So because you like 9mm and 10mm, there is no need fro a 40?

Your argument is flawed logic, why would you compare a "hot 9mm" to a standard 40?
Compare "hot 9mm" to a "hot 40", same bullets, then have this conversation again.

You do realize that the same improvements to the 9mm also pertain to the .40 don't you?
Or do you actually believe bullet development and powder improvements only pertain to the 9mm?

I have had 9mm, 10mm, .41, .45s, .38s, and current flavor is .40.
I like the balance of power above a 9mm, without the felt recoil and cost of bullets for the 10mm.
And I love the 10mm as well.

That does not mean I won't change again, all are viable calibers.

Their will always be a need for the .40 as long as people wish to buy it, not when some random persons opinion says it is no longer needed.

That is the cool part about having your own individual "choices", LOL

[jbauch357]

Fair points and it's obviously not as black and white as my late night posting made it sound, should have said "for me there is no reason..."

I tried and tried to like .40 but just never really got sold on it.  The recoil, noise and cost are greater than 9mm but you're still not getting magnum caliber performance.  So you can't put rounds on soft targets as fast/constant, but also can't use the round for applications where magnum performance is required like in the woods.  All of my .40 pistols are now running 9mm barrels/mags/springs or have been sold off if not convertible.

As far as performance improvements go, if I understand correctly most .40 pistols are built on 9mm platform, so they've got thinner chamber walls and can't push performance/ballistics limits like 9mm can, or was that just back in the old days when GLOCK kabooms were so common?

In the end if you like it keep shooting it and do whatever makes you happy, for me it's a middling cartridge that doesn't really have any good use.

[KFhunter]

I'm never going to advocate for less carry options 

[Mongo Hunter]

I don't think it will ever be "over". its still a viable cartridge that ALOT of people really like.

When it was made it bridged that gap between 9mm and .45, now with ammunition getting better and better the gap is pretty much non existent. So yes in a way the sweeping love of the .40 is over. but I don't think it will ever be gone.

10mm is still around, .357 sig is still around. neither of those got near as popular as the .40

Personally I'm a 9mm guy these days. the guns are small, light and 9mm is cheap to shoot. not to mention there is such a wide range of ammo choices from mild to "super go fast" (I like the HST +P myself) that almost any shooter can use them.

[KFhunter]

my next deep conceal carry will be a 9mm

[jackelope]

I'm not educated much in this department, but if you have to buy special, hi-po, hot rod rounds in 9mm to come close to matching the .40, doesn't the benefit of the hot rod 9mm rounds go out the window?? Or are the higher performance, harder hitting 9mm rounds still cheaper, more available and lower recoiling than the standard .40's??
Educate me...

[Mongo Hunter]

I'm not educated much in this department, but if you have to buy special, hi-po, hot rod rounds in 9mm to come close to matching the .40, doesn't the benefit of the hot rod 9mm rounds go out the window?? Or are the higher performance, harder hitting 9mm rounds still cheaper, more available and lower recoiling than the standard .40's??
Educate me...

Short answer is yes. 9mm +P still tends to have less recoil than a .40 S&W. the other benefit is higher mag capacity and yes the ammo is still cheaper.

[KFhunter]

yes, if you practice with that expensive stuff. 

[jbauch357]

I'm not educated much in this department, but if you have to buy special, hi-po, hot rod rounds in 9mm to come close to matching the .40, doesn't the benefit of the hot rod 9mm rounds go out the window?? Or are the higher performance, harder hitting 9mm rounds still cheaper, more available and lower recoiling than the standard .40's??
Educate me...

Short answer is yes. 9mm +P still tends to have less recoil than a .40 S&W. the other benefit is higher mag capacity and yes the ammo is still cheaper.

Yup, depending on which rounds you're shooting 9mm 124gr +p is going to have about 90% of the energy of 165gr .40s&W...  but you get more capacity, less recoil and it is cheaper to shoot.

If you're a reloader you can pretty cheaply practice with the more powerful stuff.  My 9mm practice loads are 115gr @ 1,250 fps - and they cost me under $0.11/rd.

[Cylvertip]

I see 40 for what it is,  a de-nutted 10mm.  I am a 9mm guy, but my next pistol will be a Glock 40, which is the 10mm factory long slide. There is just not enough differentiation between the 9 and 40 for me to want to go that route.  Underwood  10MM  Xtreme Penetrator +p  through a 6" barrel will be a different story.   

[KFhunter]

I hope you don't carry that thing for personal defense in crowded areas, it'll pass through your bad guy and 4 more people behind them.

[300rum]

The .40 will be like the .38 super, a great round that once had a wider appeal but now carried by guys who wear a newsboy hat and wax their handle bar mustache. 

[theleo]

It's like the 38-40. It'll be around but always overshadowed buy it's larger and smaller counterparts.

[Buzz2401]

I own a ton of pistols but don't a 40 but I would say it is far from hype, they sell a ton of them still and always will.

[KFhunter]

I own a ton of pistols but don't a 40 but I would say it is far from hype, they sell a ton of them still and always will.

  

pretty much the gold standard for law enforcement

[Mongo Hunter]

I own a ton of pistols but don't a 40 but I would say it is far from hype, they sell a ton of them still and always will.

  

pretty much the gold standard for law enforcement

Actually that's changing. a lot of departments are switching back to the 9mm. easier to shoot, more ammo, cheaper to shoot and 9mm doesn't beat the guns up as bad giving longer service life. remember like the military the police force is full of bean counters.

[fish vacuum]

I own a ton of pistols but don't a 40 but I would say it is far from hype, they sell a ton of them still and always will.

  

pretty much the gold standard for law enforcement

Actually that's changing. a lot of departments are switching back to the 9mm. easier to shoot, more ammo, cheaper to shoot and 9mm doesn't beat the guns up as bad giving longer service life. remember like the military the police force is full of bean counters.

This. Similar performance in the field from 9mm at a lower cost on the range.

[STRINGSHOOTER]

I'm certainly no expert, but I have been researching a semi auto to carry while hunting in the event of a cat or black bear. From what I've seen the 10mm is best, but the 40 is more effective than 45 or 9 against bear for penetration. While a 9 will penetrate, it takes more shots than from a 40,and placement on a charging bear or cat is not so easy. So I thought I would get a 40 with some good ammo. A good 9 with great ammo is fine for self defense. I'm not interested in a revolver. What do you think?

[300rum]

This is why it is and has been going away.  Emphasis mine. 

https://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

FBI 9MM Justification

FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

· Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

· Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

· Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

· In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEOs in a shooting incident

· Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

· The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

· LEOs miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

[SpringerFan]

My carry is a Beretta PX4 Storm in .40 and I love it. I don't reload so the equipment is not an issue. I don't have the knowledge to make a call but I like the round.

[Alchase]

I'm not educated much in this department, but if you have to buy special, hi-po, hot rod rounds in 9mm to come close to matching the .40, doesn't the benefit of the hot rod 9mm rounds go out the window?? Or are the higher performance, harder hitting 9mm rounds still cheaper, more available and lower recoiling than the standard .40's??
Educate me...

A hotrod (handloaded) 9mm round will get close to a standard .40 cal in speed not weight.

Using Hornady just as an example:
9mm go up to 147gr
40 cal starts at 155gr up to 180gr

Felt recoil differences between the .40 and the 9mm are negligible compared to the difference between the .40 and the 10mm, and dependent on handgun make and model, but everyone is different and feels recoil differently.

Attached is a comparison from Speer LE Gold Dot page comparing 147gr 9mm (heaviest 9mm) and 155gr .40 cal (lightest .40)

The energy of the .40 cal at 100 yards is more then the 9mm at the muzzle.
And at the muzzle the 9mm is only 64% of the .40 cal

[Alchase]

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

I would love to see which 9mm projectiles are outperforming premium .40 cal rounds?

I showed just one typical example from Speer LE Gold dots, very popular round for Law Enforcement, every ammo seller I know makes same type ammo for both calibers.

[jay.sharkbait]

I think it's easier to spray and prey with the 9 than a 40.

[h20hunter]

No way can I shoot da 40 with the required side of slide sight picture like i can with a double stacked 9.

[Cylvertip]

I hope you don't carry that thing for personal defense in crowded areas, it'll pass through your bad guy and 4 more people behind them.

 

No, That will be my new woods carry gun  - prepping for hunting in brown bear country

[The scout]

I think it's easier to spray and prey with the 9 than a 40.

That's the mag I use for all my backpack trips but only because I'm not that good of a shot

[300rum]

I'm not sure what the FBI is using for ammo, I'll have to look that up but it is coming from them and their testing.

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

I would love to see which 9mm projectiles are outperforming premium .40 cal rounds?

I showed just one typical example from Speer LE Gold dots, very popular round for Law Enforcement, every ammo seller I know makes same type ammo for both calibers.

[300rum]

There you go.....

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/news/2015/11/02/fbi-going-back-to-9mm-ammunition.aspx

According to FBI Special Agent Ray Cook, the current unit chief of the FBI’s Defensive Systems Unit, the bureau, which continuously tests various types of ammunition, began considering a return to the 9mm round in 2007 in part because of advances in ballistic technology.

The new 9mm round —the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot G2 — is significantly more effective than what FBI agents carried into the field in 1986. According to Cook, the bullet has been rigorously tested and has received high marks in the FBI’s most important category for bullet selection: penetration.

Cook says that the lighter the bullet, the faster the gun can “drive” the round into the target. For the FBI, that translates into 12 to 18 inches of penetration into the human body. The 9mm’s weight, Cook added, also increases an agent’s accuracy in a gunfight, according to the findings of a 2014 FBI report that was leaked online last year.

[Alchase]

What you posted is totally correct, 9mm ammo (and all other ammo) is significantly more effective than what they had in 1986.

And the penetration modern 9mm rounds have, is more than efficient to kill.

But as you can see by my earlier post comparing the Speer 147gr 9mm to the same bullet in 155gr .40 cal., the .40 is 40% more effective,
if they can put rounds on target,
LOL

We are in a "golden era of ammo" right now. It will take another major breakthrough to continue the increases in performance we have seen over the last 20 years.