Western Wyoming Mule Deer in Crisis

[CaNINE]

I know there are many members here who hunt Wyoming and may be willing to support the cause to protect Wyoming's mule deer herd.

The winter of 2016 had a significant impact on herd mortality.  Immediate changes are needed to how Wyoming Fish & Game manages hunting in Western Wyoming, particularly Region G & H.  I believe it is our duty as hunters to take action and be willing to sacrifice in order to preserve the herd and help it rebuild.

My friend, Robb Wiley who owns Non-Typical Outfitters in Alpine, Wyoming, is helping lead a charge to petition the Wyoming Fish & Game Commission to make interim changes to the number of resident and non-resident tags in these units.

I encourage you to read Robb's position and strategy then take action to write letters to the commissioners showing your support toward making changes to Wyoming's deer herd management strategy.

https://nontypicaloutfitters.com/mule-deer-crisis/

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/About-Us/Game-and-Fish-Commission/Meet-the-Commissioners

Thank you

[jjhunter]

I’m not a fan of Robb....undeniably hypocritical.  Obviously, doesn’t like competition.

That being said, resident pressure should be curtailed.  Not sure how many more tags that non residents should give up?

I think that other measures could be taken to maintain opportunity and save a few deer.

[meatwhack]

Sorry to say but Robb is only looking out for himself and future profits in what he’s pushing for. People are more willing to pay top dollar for high end bucks. He’s pushing to eliminate some of his competition on these upper end bucks.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I would think our mule deer populations are way worse than theirs. 

[link]

I read through that a while ago. I'm also curious as to what it is that he is willing to sacrifice?  I'm confused as to what he is going to do to help out the herd. He says he wants to be part of the solution. Even if non resident tags get cut drastically, and resident tags get limited ( do not think that's  going to happen ) he is still going to be booked up with as many hunters as he has now.  He's booked up now for a couple years, and built up a reputation for killing big bucks, which he definitely does. Go look at his website. Anyone with a coveted tag who is going to hire an outfitter should have him at or near the top of their list. like said before, it seems like he is trying to use this crisis to his benefit. Carpetbagger!

[Limhangerslayer]

I’m not a fan of Robb....undeniably hypocritical.  Obviously, doesn’t like competition.
   Jj nailed it.  Sure cut resident and outfitter tags.  Non residents have already been cut.   Hell give us the wilderness back and we'll talk! 
That being said, resident pressure should be curtailed.  Not sure how many more tags that non residents should give up?

I think that other measures could be taken to maintain opportunity and save a few deer.

[actionshooter]

I don't think Robb is using this for a financial gain, he truly cares about the herd and the area. I agree that on the surface limiting tags probably wouldn't affect the number of people that Non-Typical COULD take out, but it also wouldn't surprise me at all if Robb limited himself.
 One thing to consider, NTO is all about bringing in the big bucks and if the population isn't there and they continue to take out the same amount of hunters the success percentages go down. That's not a winning situation.

[Skyvalhunter]

CANine is it possible you could lead the charge here in Wa state to do the same?

[Branden]

It would only help NTO if they cut tags. Plus when you have a post hunt buck/doe ratio of over 30/100 why do you need to cut more buck tags. That is plenty of bucks to breed the does. He should be pushing to increase the doe numbers.

Try getting Robb to push for a 1 week season and see what happens. It’s tough for the deer to make it through a 3 week season unseen. Also how can he say long range shooting is a problem when he has a long range shooting class himself? Hypocrite much? How about scouting by airplane? How about the scouting packages? A huge detriment to the herd? Brian said 2 of his clients have killed bucks compared how many of NTO’s clients? Straight up this is about reducing compition. It is in his self interest hands down to limit hunters.

Regards, Branden

[jjhunter]

His true colors were shown went he went after scouting packages...egos can be hard to tame I guess?

[2MANY]

Too few acres and too many people.
One of the 2 has to change.

I have an opinion on people that make a living off our public resources but it wouldn't be popular with the ones who feel entitled to continue doing so.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Unlimited nonresident tags?  Selfish interests?  Please.  Same old outfitter song that resident hunter opportunities (and/or non-outfitted nonresident hunters) have to be curtailed so poor old outfitters can make more money.  Too bad there aren't wilderness areas in the Wyoming Range, as the outfitters already hosed the nonresident big game hunter in most other Wyoming mountain ranges with the absurd wilderness guide requirement.

A few comments on his appeal: "This is why I have decided to ring the bell and shout from the mountain top, “This herd My profit marginneeds our help!”  "Yet I am ready to give it all up, if necessary, to save this magical herd." Really?  Put up or shut up.  I can't see a single mention of any proposal to limit NTO in any way.  "The WGF is trying to do the impossible job of keeping everyone happy.  It’s time to stop and revert to the original task of managing for the wildlife first. "  BS They manage for the wildlife first and the license buyer second.  Third is probably private landowners.  Sorry to say, public land outfitters are not high on the priority.  "Right now, the only management tools they have is shortening the season and cutting non-resident tag numbers. Both of those tools have already been maximized."  Both of these tools have been maximized to the point public land outfitters' future profiteering may be jeopardized would be an much more accurate statement.  I could go on, but it is all the same deceptive and/or self-serving drivel.

I could go for reducing hunting pressure 50% as he claims to want: cut season length in half Oh wait, that's been "maximized", he'd have to hire twice as many guides.  Legal shooting hours 9am-3pm.  No hunting same year as aerial scouting.  No use of game cameras.  Preposterous?  Yes, anything that limits a public land outfitter is preposterous, only reasonable ideas please - those that limit my competition for the public resource on public land.  "It’s very clear that if we are going to save this herd it will be by reducing overall harvest, by reducing the number of resident hunters in the area." Want to control who harvests what?  Lease a f'in ranch.

  I would say the #1 reason for the decline in quality is technology: aerial scouting, trail cameras, 1000 yard shooting systems, BDC laser rangefinders, etc.  #2, the guys busting butt to find the biggest and best all summer, in order to sell as many as possible for the highest dollar possible.  #3, the ever-growing prioritization of inches of bone rendered to possession as the primary objective in hunting.  I dislike all three, but it's not my place to dictate what 21st century hunting is.  I don't think anyone begrudges public land outfitters the opportunity to try and make a living - but the inevitable squalling for measures to tip the scales their way sure gets tiresome.

[Hot Lunch]

The lack of big bucks issue goes a lot further than Wyoming. Hunters now are armed with deadly accurate rifles that can accurately shoot well over a mile. Wearing lightweight high tech performance clothing and footwear. These guys are scouting with google earth,social media, air planes while hunting the entire season. Hunter efficiency has never been higher and this is an issue that is not going away and is not isolated to one area.

Getting on a horse and going back a few miles is a failing tactic to get into big deer. Outfitters like the one listed above are no doubt panicking about the quality of deer and blaming it on overall deer numbers which is not the case. I can understand they would like less hunters in their area but is not a viable solution to manage units because of competition from non-outfitted hunters.

[CaNINE]

Thanks for all your thoughts and opinions on this topic.  I was expecting more discussion on the topic of conservation rather than a backlash at the outfitting industry.  I appreciate the perspectives though. 

My take is that the actions that are good for rebuilding and sustaining the deer herd are good for all of us, hunters and outfitters alike.  I for one, hope to continue hunting and having an opportunity at mature age class animals in Region G & H.  And I would like those opportunities for future generations.  However, with a 90%+ fawn mortality in 2017, the problem is beyond just managing for trophy class deer.

I will say this, I think the strategy should go further to include a 1 - 3-year moratorium for residents and non-residents alike in certain regions.  Even this extreme step is no guarantee at rebooting the herd and certainly wouldn't be popular with most user groups. 

Again, thanks for the discussion.

Skyvalhunter - you asked if I'm willing to lead the charge here in Washington.  I'm certainly willing to be part of the conversation.  If you're serious, send me a PM and we can have a meeting.  Laying out a meaningful strategy over an internet forum will be difficult to administrate.  Perhaps we can organize some HuntWa member focus groups in different geographical regions of the State to meet face-to-face, develop some problem statements and lay out recommendations on behalf of the hunting community.  We can merge those ideas then take them forward to WDFW.  Just a thought.

[2MANY]

CaNINE has demonstrated that he is worthy of any involvement he chooses.
I'm very impressed.
I've only hunted Region G and H five times over the course of the past 15 years or so.
What I have seen could be fixed by limiting the amount of hunters.
As it gained popularity it spiraled downward.
Obviously winter's are another subject.
The last time I was there I was shocked at the amount of human sign from earlier in the season. There also was broken snow mobile parts on the tops of the highest peaks.
Just plain gross to the point I didn't go back.
Even all the magazine cover bucks I've seen in there in the past and a cache of points won't get me there.
More efficient hunters?
Yup and simply too many of them too.
All the more reason to limit the amount of users.
Period.
I wish you the best of luck CaNINE and hope you make a difference.

[opdinkslayer]

Eliminate the use of livestock and any motorized vehicles and that will cut the interest in hunting & guiding there in half. There is far more to the health and survival of this amazing migratory deer herd than just hunting pressure tho. I don't disagree with alot of what Robb says but I also think his motives are self serving. Anybody thats been there and hunted falls in love with it's beauty and the resiliency of these deer. I think we all want what's best for the deer herd in the long run. 

[ipkus]

By far the #1 problem with G and H is unlimited resident hunting.  Residents flock there from all over the state for the first two weeks of the season before returning to their home grounds Oct. 1.  Limit the currently unlimited or you are not going to solve the problem.

Secondly, I don’t know this outfitter from Adam but honestly don’t care what any outfitter in Wyoming has to say until they come out in opposition of the wilderness rule.  I am locked out of public ground solely because of a law pushed for and heavily supported by the outfitting industry.  If your way of living can’t sustain itself without a government subsidy that also hurts other citizens, to hell with ya.

[meatwhack]

if The goal is to increase the number of mature bucks then hunting pressure and success need to be reduced. There’s several ways this could be accomplished.

[walleye1]

Hopefully they accomplish something because that country is GODS gift to mule deer hunters.

[2MANY]

The unlimited resident hunting access is a joke for sure.

[Hot Lunch]

Wyoming has the most self serving entitled management of any western state. The only reason their management has worked for so long is the amount of acres they manage to the population of resident hunters. The times are catching up to them with their everything is Mary Poppins as long as your are a resident management scheme. 

[Bigshooter]

The only thing that's gonna help is a bunch of mild winters.

[Indian Summer]

Ipkus is spot on. Non resident tags are already limited and take 5 or 6 years worth of points to draw. Meanwhile residents who have much more time to scout and hunt it can buy a tag every year. No doubt that is the area that needs changed if you want to see an impact right NOW.

[Ghost Hunter]

Careful what you wish for.  If I was a resident, I'd be upset if I wasnt able to get an annual deer and elk tag.  Take away the plus side and doesn't leave many taking care of the state.  Not many want that in WA but good for WY?      

[Indian Summer]

They can always get tags. It’s very common for residents to have to draw certain units. Montana’s Bitterroot is all draw for deer as is the Breaks for elk. Colorado is like that all over the place. Let’s not forget who pays the bills. Non residents! Compare the costs of licenses and see how that stacks up. Fish and game departments would be bankrupt if they had to live on resident license money. Besides the bottom line is it’s a management of a declining herd. Unlimited resident tags is definitely an issue. Like I said a non res hunter only hunts G one week every 6 years.

[2MANY]

If their hard up for a spot that is.

[Branden]

If the post hunt buck doe ratio is over 30/100 then what’s the problem with unlimited resident hunters hunting bucks? If they are killing does that’s a different story. But I don’t believe they are.

Also I see a few comments saying resident hunters need to be limited. Problem with that is then those hunters will go crowd another unit until that unit needs to be draw only and it’s a domino affect. How many are for turning Washington’s best general season units to draw only?

Again Robb is only looking out for his bottom line. If he wanted to help the herd he would push for opening day to be on October 1st. Or cut the season down to one week.

[Bwana Bob]

I hunted region F this past season, late Oct to Nov 6. I drew this tag as a second choice tag. I had some info on the area from a few hunters that had hunted it in the past but I wasn't ready for all the people and pressure. It rivaled opening weekend here in WA. I've hunted deer before in WY but mostly limited draw areas or other regions that did not have a close to the rut season. I had better hunts in those areas even if I didn't shoot a buck. Way less people and the ability to get away from them. The area biologist did warn me that F had a hard winter and some winter kill. I talked to two resident brothers that I met in the Sunlight basin and they said it was the lowest amount of deer and especially fawns they seen in the last 15 years of hunting there.

Its been talked about limiting the residents to only one region to hunt but its not my business as a non res to tell them whats good for them. WA has a lot bigger problem with its deer herd and to many hunters. One thing I noticed is all the small basket racked bucks many non residents shot. That can't help either but tough to fix. I would like to think reducing the amount of tags even further would help but from what side that should come from is hard to say. 

Would I hunt F again, probably not but you could kill a decent buck there if you got lucky.  Hoping to burn my 6 deer points there and hunt a limited draw area before I get too old.

[whacker1]

following along.  lots of discussion about winterkill, population in general, and hunting pressure.  if they limit tags to a quota, won't the same apply to non-resident tags at a percentage of said quota?  won't it take longer for Robb's returning customers to draw tags from out of state?

I would agree that the tools they have to work with are to utilize a resident draw quota and change season dates, as the most significant impactful solutions, but curious to see where this conversation goes if anywhere.

[dscubame]

"The only strategy that is sustainable long term is a resident and nonresident draw, or a “Limited Quota System.” In my opinion, we need to reduce harvest by a minimum of 50%, have mandatory harvest reports, keep our seasons at the traditional length (Sept 15th to October 14th) to spread hunters out, keep the 3 point or better regulation in order to save the young bucks, and develop an unlimited management tag for our youth. The youth tag could be for the many, 3-point mature bucks in the herd. These mature 3x3s and 2x3s are competing with the rest of the herd on the winter grounds and need to be harvested. Most of these big 3x3s and 2x3s are dying of old age. Our winter grounds are full of them. These bucks would keep our youth in the field as well as aid in the herd’s winter ground survival. This strategy would require that a resident preference point system be developed for deer and elk."

I tend to agree with this part of the article and specifically some sort of resident preference point system.

[Bigshooter]

After the winter of 2007-08 we heard all about how the deer herd in G and H was done for unless things were drastically changed.  Then we had a bunch of mild winters and all of the sudden G and H was the place to hunt again.  The one thing that will really improve G and H are mild winters and we have no control over that.  Knee jerk reactions won't grow the herds.  But If you really want to still help, improve the winter range because that's about the only thing that we as people can do to help.

Everyone should look up the migration of the deer named Mo.  Very interesting and it has to do with G and H.

[bearpaw]

It's interesting to read everyone's perspective on this issue. People are human, everyone looks out for their own interest, including most of the comments in this topic. Nonresident don't want further limitations, residents want annual opportunity, and outfitters want to maintain their business. Each user group blames the other! 

The bottom line is that mule deer herds were slowly recovering all over the west from previous hard winters until we had another hard winter. Now we are back to square one and everyone is in a panic in all the impacted states. I honestly think everyone just needs to take a step back and look at history of deer herds, it's a constant up and down cycle for herd numbers everywhere and the biggest herd decreases are hard winters, second and third one way or the other are probably predation (including hunters) and the habitat available for any given herd. But when you get a hard winter it cuts the herd in half and sometimes even less!

I'm pretty confident that elimination of antlerless hunting opportunity and predator control are the best methods to help a herd recover. If you minimize the impacts (hunting and predators) on the females the herd will recover faster. No doubt if you limit buck hunting the buck to doe ratios and the number of quality bucks will rise but I'm not of the opinion you must limit buck hunting to increase herd numbers unless it appears does are not being bred due to a lack of bucks. I'm further not convinced that buck hunting must be eliminated to grow big bucks. Mule deer herds have recovered in the past to produce big bucks again a few years after winter kills in many areas with unlimited tag numbers. Obviously giving up buck hunting opportunity will produce big bucks faster but there are trade offs if you do that and I'm not sure the trade offs are worth it in every case?

Just last night on the Salt Lake news they were discussing Wyoming Deer tags, I do think there will be some changes, they say deer numbers are the lowest in decades, last winter really impacted western WY badly!

[KFhunter]

cougar says: "eat a buck, save a doe"

One possible benefit of leaving a surplus of bucks in the herd is that predators eat bucks too, one sacrificial buck is one doe saved in the absence of aggressive predator control.

[bearpaw]

Utah and Idaho have it together on Predator control, I'm not sure about WY, I think they have pretty conservative cougar quotas?

[Special T]

They seem to have plenty of Grizzly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[2MANY]

Talked to one of the dominant Region G guides on the phone today.
He said straight up the problem is the unlimited resident tags.

[Indian Summer]

They seem to have plenty of Grizzly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Not in Region G. No griz there. It’s ironic that Rob Wiley is the subject of this thread when he is responsible for killing more trophy class bucks than all of the other Outfitters combined. Also since he is talks about creating a regulation to restrict scoped rifles and go to open sites only. Meanwhile as far as using technology goes it’s well known that he uses airplanes all pre season to locate the biggest bucks AND he runs a long range shooting school to help hunters increase their idds of success. I have a very good long time friend who guided for him for several years and I’m pretty sure he’s just looking out for number one.

[WAcoueshunter]

As has been noted by others, the actual herd itself ebbs and flows with winterkill.  This is less about the number of deer total, and more about the number of mature bucks in the herd.  No question the unlimited resident tags have an impact on that, combined with better technology, the drive for Internet fame, etc.  For mule deer junkies, where else can you live and hunt 200" bucks every year?  People move there for this opportunity.  Every year you see giant bucks killed on the opener by guys in their blue jeans.  That's not an accident, those bucks get found and are watched all summer by the residents.  I ran into one guy last year in G who made the 3-hour commute that morning to be there at first light.  This was about 12 days into the season.  He was looking for a particular buck he had pre-scouted and chased on the opener, and was hoping to find him again after he vanished.  That same scenario plays out over and over with the hard core residents looking for the biggest bucks.  It happens with the outfitters too, but not with most DIY non-residents who don't have the ability to scout like that in advance. 

[bigmacc]

As has been noted by others, the actual herd itself ebbs and flows with winterkill.  This is less about the number of deer total, and more about the number of mature bucks in the herd.  No question the unlimited resident tags have an impact on that, combined with better technology, the drive for Internet fame, etc.  For mule deer junkies, where else can you live and hunt 200" bucks every year?  People move there for this opportunity.  Every year you see giant bucks killed on the opener by guys in their blue jeans.  That's not an accident, those bucks get found and are watched all summer by the residents.  I ran into one guy last year in G who made the 3-hour commute that morning to be there at first light.  This was about 12 days into the season.  He was looking for a particular buck he had pre-scouted and chased on the opener, and was hoping to find him again after he vanished.  That same scenario plays out over and over with the hard core residents looking for the biggest bucks.  It happens with the outfitters too, but not with most DIY non-residents who don't have the ability to scout like that in advance.

 ...My neighbor,s brother shot a huge buck down there a few years ago as a non resident, it scored around 210 I believe, while he was field dressing it a couple guys walked up on him and made him feel really uncomfortable, I guess they acted a little pissed that he was a non resident and apparently he had killed a buck they had been watching since summer. He said it was a pretty tense situation.

[bearpaw]

Here's the thing with many western states, hunters are moving to these states for the hunting. I see the same thing in MT and ID, resident hunter numbers are up and it's in large part to hunters vacating states with poor management or states that require draws for residents to get a tag. This really is more than just a WY issue.

It's not such and issue when herds are up and everyone is notching tags, but after a hard winter takes half or more of the deer then hunters become even more self serving in their views on management! 

[2MANY]

2MANY people.

PERIOD.

[bearpaw]

more info...

WGFD CONTINUES PUBLIC DISCUSSION OF WYOMING RANGE AND SUBLETTE MULE DEER HERDS

GREEN RIVER--The Wyoming Game and Fish Department (WGFD) invites members of the public to join them in discussions about the management of mule deer and their habitat in the Green River, Jackson and Pinedale regions. Since 2010, the WGFD has worked collaboratively with the public to develop the Wyoming Range Mule Deer Initiative, a long term management plan which outlined a number of actions to benefit mule deer and their habitat. With that plan now well underway, the WGFD has expanded that effort to include the adjacent Sublette mule deer herd, which basically encompasses the west slope of the Wind River Range and west to the Wyoming Range.

As in the past, these public meetings will involve presentations focusing on three major themes that emerged in the making of the Wyoming Range Mule Deer Initiative: 1) Habitat Management, 2) Population Management, and 3) Research. Local experts on each topic will present what is currently being done and what is planned for the future. In addition, local Game and Fish personnel responsible for management of the Wyoming Range and Sublette mule deer herds will be discussing the impacts of the 2017 winter, recapping the 2017 hunting seasons, and the on-going research being conducted in the Wyoming Range mule deer herd.   

There will be opportunity for the public to provide their comments on these topics or other aspects pertaining to the management of these two mule deer herds. One of the main thrusts of Wyoming’s Mule Deer Initiative is to maintain an ongoing, open dialogue with those interested in mule deer management in the state.

Public meetings will be held:

January 22, 6:00pm, Kemmerer, South Lincoln Events Center (215 WY-233)
January 23, 6:00pm, Green River Game and Fish office (351 Astle)
January 23, 6:00pm, Jackson, Teton County Commissioners’ Chambers (200 S. Willow Street)
January 24, 6:00pm, Thayne Town Hall (115 Peterson Parkway)

The Wyoming Range Mule Deer Initiative was approved by the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission in 2010. The plan was designed to be a working document that could be amended if priorities should change or new opportunities arise to benefit the mule deer herd.

The initial public involvement process to develop the WRMDI involved several rounds of meetings that were well received by the public. The resulting Wyoming Range Mule Deer Management Plan was the first herd-specific plan developed under the auspices of the statewide Wyoming Mule Deer Initiative. Several other similar planning efforts have since been initiated with the public for other mule deer herds in the state.

The Wyoming Mule Deer Initiative is a statewide framework designed to address declining mule deer populations, particularly over the last two decades. These declines are not unique to Wyoming, but have been seen throughout the West.

To learn more about the Wyoming’s Mule Deer Initiative and the ongoing work, visit the Game and Fish website and click on the following link:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Habitat/Statewide-Mule-Deer-Initiatives

The State of Wyoming supports the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Anyone requiring auxiliary aids, regarding this Public Notice, should contact the Jackson Game and Fish Office at 307-733-2321. Every effort will be made for reasonable accommodations.

                                             ~ WGFD ~