I-1639 mega thread

[Humptulips]

Unconstitutional
Needs to go thru the courts and up on Kavanaughs desk

 

Don’t think it would pass muster in the Supreme Court.

Very true, but the Seattle Supreme court would not agree

That’s fine. But it has to go thru the courts for a ruling and appeals and on to to the appellate courts. This law could back fire on anti gun groups because the courts may rule that anyone over 18 can legally purchase a firearm including a pistol because it is commonly used for self defense

Aren't initiatives only supposed to cover one subject?  This one is training, age, storage, etc.

 

The WA Supreme Court has ruled that Initiative titles can be classed as General and Restrictive. If  topics are merely incidental to the general topic reflected in the title the title can be classed as General and be seen as one subject even though it appears to have multiple subjects.

[bigtex]

Ok guys here is the enforceable law for the whole "someone stole my gun scenario"

(1) A person who stores or leaves a firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a prohibited person may gain access to the firearm:
(a) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the first degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and causes personal injury or death with the firearm; or
(b) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the second degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and:
(i) Causes the firearm to discharge;
(ii) Carries, exhibits, or displays the firearm in a public place in a manner that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons; or
(iii) Uses the firearm in the commission of a crime.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:[/u]
(a) The firearm was in secure gun storage, or secured with a trigger lock or similar device that is designed to prevent the unauthorized use or discharge of the firearm;
(b) In the case of a person who is a prohibited person on the basis of the person's age, access to the firearm is with the lawful permission of the prohibited person's parent or guardian and supervised by an adult, or is in accordance with RCW 9.41.042;
(c) The prohibited person obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense; or
(d) The prohibited person's access to the firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry, provided that the unauthorized access or theft of the firearm is reported to a local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction in which the unauthorized access or theft occurred within five days of the time the victim of the unlawful entry knew or reasonably should have known that the firearm had been taken.[/color]

Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!

If someone steals your gun and it does have a trigger lock then guess what you can't be charged.

If someone steals your gun and it doesn't have a trigger lock or it wasn't in safe you can't be charged as long as you report it within 5 days of noticing the gun is gone.

[Fl0und3rz]

I don't like the criminalization of lawful activity under the pretense of it having a never to materialize impact on safety.  This is just legalized harassment of a disfavored minority by the majority.

However, my biggest gripe with I1639, and why I will leave the state, is the disenfranchisement of my children of their 2A rights.  A pox on people who voted for that, and Paul Allen can EABOD.

[csaaphill]

Police:  We got a report your house was broken into on January the 21st 2019 by your neighbor, a gun registered to you was used in a homicide 3 years later, why didn't you report it within the 5 day window?

homeowner:  I was on a 12 day vacation, I got broken into on day 2 of my vacation and reported it when I got back 10 days after the incident.


Police:  sucks to be you, by order of the court you're under arrest, do you have a good lawyer?

yeah but you'll deserve it right? you'll read headlines on where someone violates this and post here and will be all "Well he broke the law he deserves it. "
One of the things I've been saying all along. 

[csaaphill]

Everybody is freaking out over the "someone broke into my house and stole my gun" so now I will be charged scenario. There are four exceptions to the law where if they apply you can't be charged. I bolded the two big ones in my opinion.

(a) The firearm was in secure gun storage, or secured with a trigger lock or similar device that is designed to prevent the unauthorized use or discharge of the firearm;
(b) In the case of a person who is a prohibited person on the basis of the person's age, access to the firearm is with the lawful permission of the prohibited person's parent or guardian and supervised by an adult, or is in accordance with RCW 9.41.042;
(c) The prohibited person obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense; or
(d) The prohibited person's access to the firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry, provided that the unauthorized access or theft of the firearm is reported to a local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction in which the unauthorized access or theft occurred within five days of the time the victim of the unlawful entry knew or reasonably should have known that the firearm had been taken.

How are people ever going to prove they had a trigger lock or similar device or that it was even in your gun safe? What if they steal the gun safe? The burden of proof will fall on the victim of being burglarized...

It doesn't matter as long as you report they were stolen!!!!!

If you have 500 guns in you're house just laying around with no trigger locks/gun safes, etc. and someone breaks in and steals them as long as you report the theft you cannot be charged with a crime.

Nothing in the law says you have to lock up your guns, in fact the law even says that "(6) Nothing in this section mandates how or where a firearm must be stored."

. Their definition...

Secure gun storage" means:
    (a) A locked box, gun safe, or other secure locked storage space
that is designed to prevent unauthorized use or discharge of a
firearm; and

If it is just laying around they will more then definitely prosecute you.

You are reading a definition, not the enforceable law.

But what do I know, it's only my job to enforce the law 

Not surprised

[Fl0und3rz]

Ok guys here is the enforceable law for the whole "someone stole my gun scenario"

(1) A person who stores or leaves a firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a prohibited person may gain access to the firearm:
(a) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the first degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and causes personal injury or death with the firearm; or
(b) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the second degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and:
(i) Causes the firearm to discharge;
(ii) Carries, exhibits, or displays the firearm in a public place in a manner that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons; or
(iii) Uses the firearm in the commission of a crime.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:[/u]
(a) The firearm was in secure gun storage, or secured with a trigger lock or similar device that is designed to prevent the unauthorized use or discharge of the firearm;
(b) In the case of a person who is a prohibited person on the basis of the person's age, access to the firearm is with the lawful permission of the prohibited person's parent or guardian and supervised by an adult, or is in accordance with RCW 9.41.042;
(c) The prohibited person obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense; or
(d) The prohibited person's access to the firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry, provided that the unauthorized access or theft of the firearm is reported to a local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction in which the unauthorized access or theft occurred within five days of the time the victim of the unlawful entry knew or reasonably should have known that the firearm had been taken.[/color]

Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!

Quit playing games.  If you don't want to run afoul of the enforceable provisions, the intention is that you will lock them up.  The law is written so that you are presented with an empty choice.  Comply or risk the consequences.

[csaaphill]

And before the flames this sucks wish it hadn't passed but knew it would didn't you? When someone violates this then don't go He broke the law or the law is the law then. be supportive of those who might violate this. 

[bigtex]

Ok guys here is the enforceable law for the whole "someone stole my gun scenario"

(1) A person who stores or leaves a firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a prohibited person may gain access to the firearm:
(a) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the first degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and causes personal injury or death with the firearm; or
(b) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the second degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and:
(i) Causes the firearm to discharge;
(ii) Carries, exhibits, or displays the firearm in a public place in a manner that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons; or
(iii) Uses the firearm in the commission of a crime.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:[/u]
(a) The firearm was in secure gun storage, or secured with a trigger lock or similar device that is designed to prevent the unauthorized use or discharge of the firearm;
(b) In the case of a person who is a prohibited person on the basis of the person's age, access to the firearm is with the lawful permission of the prohibited person's parent or guardian and supervised by an adult, or is in accordance with RCW 9.41.042;
(c) The prohibited person obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense; or
(d) The prohibited person's access to the firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry, provided that the unauthorized access or theft of the firearm is reported to a local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction in which the unauthorized access or theft occurred within five days of the time the victim of the unlawful entry knew or reasonably should have known that the firearm had been taken.[/color]

Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!

Quit playing games.  If you don't want to run afoul of the enforceable provisions, the intention is that you will lock them up.  The law is written so that you are presented with an empty choice.  Comply or risk the consequences.

How am I playing games? It's in the damn text of the law!

[csaaphill]

Ok guys here is the enforceable law for the whole "someone stole my gun scenario"

(1) A person who stores or leaves a firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a prohibited person may gain access to the firearm:
(a) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the first degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and causes personal injury or death with the firearm; or
(b) Is guilty of community endangerment due to unsafe storage of a firearm in the second degree if a prohibited person obtains access and possession of the firearm and:
(i) Causes the firearm to discharge;
(ii) Carries, exhibits, or displays the firearm in a public place in a manner that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons; or
(iii) Uses the firearm in the commission of a crime.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:[/u]
(a) The firearm was in secure gun storage, or secured with a trigger lock or similar device that is designed to prevent the unauthorized use or discharge of the firearm;
(b) In the case of a person who is a prohibited person on the basis of the person's age, access to the firearm is with the lawful permission of the prohibited person's parent or guardian and supervised by an adult, or is in accordance with RCW 9.41.042;
(c) The prohibited person obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense; or
(d) The prohibited person's access to the firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry, provided that the unauthorized access or theft of the firearm is reported to a local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction in which the unauthorized access or theft occurred within five days of the time the victim of the unlawful entry knew or reasonably should have known that the firearm had been taken.[/color]

Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!

Quit playing games.  If you don't want to run afoul of the enforceable provisions, the intention is that you will lock them up.  The law is written so that you are presented with an empty choice.  Comply or risk the consequences.

[olyguy79]

Thankfully people dont seek actual legal advice on this forum.

Bigtex is correct on the interpretation of the law.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Fl0und3rz]

"Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!"

It says if you don't lock them, you risk these consequences.  The practical effect is the same.  You are playing semantic games.  It would be more honest to acknowledge the legitimate grievance people are raising.

Yes, you are right.  It does not say you HAVE to lock them up.  Why?  Because the risk of being ruled unconstitutional.  So they make the consequences of not making the desired choice so onerous as to remove volition from the choice.

But yeah, sure, we dont HAVE to.  That's comforting.

You don't HAVE to pay your taxes, but I bet you do.

[bigtex]

"Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!"

It says if you don't lock them, you risk these consequences.  The practical effect is the same.  You are playing semantic games.  It would be more honest to acknowledge the legitimate grievance people are raising.

Yes, you are right.  It does not say you HAVE to lock them up.  Why?  Because the risk of being ruled unconstitutional.  So they make the consequences of not making the desired so onerous as to remove volition from the choice.

But yeah, sure, we dont HAVE to.  That's comforting.

I'm not playing games. I would think most people with half a brain would report their gun stolen even before this law was in place 

And guess what, now if you do and someone uses your gun to kill someone you can't be charged.

[Fl0und3rz]

Thankfully people dont seek actual legal advice on this forum.

Bigtex is correct on the interpretation of the law.

Especially from "experts."

[Fl0und3rz]

"Nowhere does it say guns have to be locked up!"

It says if you don't lock them, you risk these consequences.  The practical effect is the same.  You are playing semantic games.  It would be more honest to acknowledge the legitimate grievance people are raising.

Yes, you are right.  It does not say you HAVE to lock them up.  Why?  Because the risk of being ruled unconstitutional.  So they make the consequences of not making the desired so onerous as to remove volition from the choice.

But yeah, sure, we dont HAVE to.  That's comforting.

I'm not playing games. I would think most people with half a brain would report their gun stolen even before this law was in place 

And guess what, now if you do and someone uses your gun to kill someone you can't be charged.

Anyone with half a brain can recognize word games, too.

[Fl0und3rz]

No. CA is a nightmare, but that does not make this any more palatable.