the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[idaho guy]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats"

I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

Why the sarcasm and bull$$$ question? I think your question has already been answered if you would just look at the FACT s. Every single deer in the methow will probably never be extinct. (Most of them live in predator free yards and among homes)But if you actually read big Mac posts (and others) you will see that the carnage of overpopulated predators happened YESTERDAY!! Winter range went from thousands of deer to a handful. what else needs to happen for you to accept all the stuff you must read every day is wrong? And the tinfoil hat conspiracy guys on here were right? The damage that was warned about on here ALREADY has happened!!! Look at your ungulate population and special permit numbers. They were right, your biologist buddies papers were wrong you need to wave the white flag on this one Idaho hunter

[idaho guy]

If I lived there I would become a full time predator hunter first. They have hamstrung you by outlawing some of the best methods but might as well hunt was is abundant and what population they are managing for abundance. predators! Save a few deer and elk and definitely have some fun!

[bigmacc]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats"

I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

Well Idahohuntr I know I have never said the Methow herd would be gone by this fall, next year or in 2 years and I don't remember reading anyone saying that. I will speak for myself, to you, things I have written concerning the Methow herd are my and my familys observations dating back to 1917, they are my opinions based on what I have seen with my own eyes and what I have heard from family members that are still with us and things that were told to me when I was a younger man by those who are now gone, over 100 years of observing, listening and talking with others who I respect, some were friends, family and some worked in various state Game Departments back in the day. I don't know if you have read many of my posts concerning the Methow herd and the predator issues in the valley so here are a few posts in this thread.  page 1 reply12.....page 2 reply 16.....page 3 reply 40....page 4 reply 48 There are more that I have written concerning this herd but those may clear up for you some of your questions. This herd and hunting it are some very special memories for me, all involving family, friends and stories told around thousands of campfires. This herd has been a part of my and my familys lives for over 100 years, this herd is suffering and its numbers are and have been falling for over 25 years, the one thing constant over the last 25 years is that predator numbers have grown and a new one arrived, with respect, even a blind man can see whats happening here. The deer will never be "gone" but I do wonder what hunting will be like(if its even allowed) in this valley for my familys next generation to continue our tradition.   

[no.cen.wa]

I echo what bigmacc is and has said, my family moved to the methow in the 1920's, they are all gone now but I was lucky enough to hunt their and still do. There are still VAST areas with NO housing for miles, and like many have said "the deer do quite well in some populated areas. It takes me an hour to get to the nearest little store from camp right now, then another 30 miles to the nearest town.  In the last 5-6 years the deer count has dropped drastically! thats from 5000 ft to 10,000 ft. There are wolves up there, many have seen them, I haven't yet, but they are close. A hunter about 3 miles away had 4 wolves trying to invite his german shepard to dinner,,, luckily the dog was tied up! He yelled and they ran off, but one came back and watched his dog for about 15 minutes. LOTS of cougars and yotes, i've seen them. There are some bears, most seem to be alittle lower.
We have sooo many ANTI wildlife hunting people in Washington state right now,, but they love Idaho and are moving there so they can screw up hunting for that state, we all know it's happening.
We'll continue to try to change things back, mostly it will only happen if we vote some of them out of office.
MY

[wolfbait]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats"

Great write up which tells the full story in short order.

The USFWS and Fake environmentalist started the propaganda that because of the expansion of housing etc. the deer etc. were declining, it is pure BS. Now we seemed to have a brand new brainwashed bunch, the pro-wolf crowd on H-W have tried to run with the same propaganda on several occasions only to be proven wrong time and again.

Most of the propaganda in support of wolves or studies by the USFWS have been proven to be lies that have been exposed do to facts on the ground. Yet the pro-wolf crowd still spew them as truth.

What has happened in the Methow is happening all over WA, and more then likely, like the Methow no action or thought will be given to the predator problems, until it is too late, the pro-wolf crowd will spew the same worthless crap they have been doing since the beginning, blame everything except predators.

This last winter we had a momma with a set of 1 1/2 year old kittens on her, plus a mamma with three yearling kittens, and two cougar without kittens, that’s quite a few mouths to feed in an area with few deer.

By the end of February the triplets and mamma were spending quite a bit of time on the river bottom sunning themselves on a porch. WDFW had caught one of the triplet kittens and chipped it, so the UW could study it, they tried to catch the mamma cougar in a live trap but it wouldn’t go in, my understanding is they then tried a leg hold and she broke her leg. We saw the kittens for a few more weeks before they crossed the river and got into some ones goats, where WDFW shot one and gave the other two to a zoo.

It’s no big deal now to see wolves on a regular basis, and talk about shooting cougars and wolves etc. is open. "You know what to do” is the language used. There is even talk of LEO’s encouraging the same.

The Public has recognized WDFW  as just another corrupt agency that created the problems we now have and have no plans of correcting them. I feel for those who work for WDFW, knowing how corrupt upper management is, the lying biologists who give honest bio’s a bad rap, the fake studies that are touted as gospel. What a mess.
 
Debating wolves with the pro-wolf crowd on H-W is a waste of time, they have known all along the end game, they sold their soul to the corrupt USFWS, WDFW, and the Fake environmental groups, I have zero respect for them.

Hunters say: "just stop hunting WA, that will fix WDFW”-Nothing could be further from the truth, as that is exactly what WDFW are striving for, NO Hunting. If you want to help hunting in WA, Hunt predators as hard as you can, that is your only chance for change at this point. 

[bigmacc]

I echo what bigmacc is and has said, my family moved to the methow in the 1920's, they are all gone now but I was lucky enough to hunt their and still do. There are still VAST areas with NO housing for miles, and like many have said "the deer do quite well in some populated areas. It takes me an hour to get to the nearest little store from camp right now, then another 30 miles to the nearest town.  In the last 5-6 years the deer count has dropped drastically! thats from 5000 ft to 10,000 ft. There are wolves up there, many have seen them, I haven't yet, but they are close. A hunter about 3 miles away had 4 wolves trying to invite his german shepard to dinner,,, luckily the dog was tied up! He yelled and they ran off, but one came back and watched his dog for about 15 minutes. LOTS of cougars and yotes, i've seen them. There are some bears, most seem to be alittle lower.
We have sooo many ANTI wildlife hunting people in Washington state right now,, but they love Idaho and are moving there so they can screw up hunting for that state, we all know it's happening.
We'll continue to try to change things back, mostly it will only happen if we vote some of them out of office.
MY

Folks like you, I and others that are old enough or experienced enough to notice the change and because of that can see what MAY be on the horizon are real pains in the a$$ for some folks, including a few on here also I guess . Well when were all gone nobody will know any better, what they have left will be the new normal AND it will be up to THEM to fight for what that new normal is, lets just hope its a fraction of what we have enjoyed. Like I have said many, many times, I hope I am wrong about all this concerning this herd, but everytime I,m out and about in this valley(about 3-4 months out of the year nowadays) my thoughts are reaffirmed.

[Igor]

Are you talking see in person or on cam. It also depends on the area of the Methow. You will see more cougar in the upper part of the valley as opposed to the lower say from Carlton down. Reason being the deer are a lot fewer and far between in the lower Methow.

I was basically asking huntnphool about his experiences because he seems to be knowledgeable about the Methow as well as being objective.  My question would be regarding the part of the Methow say, from Carlton to Washington Pass.  I know that is a huge area, but over the years we have hunted in most of that.



I'm going to stir the pot a little on the subject of predators in the Methow. We have been hunting there for over 30 years. When I say "we", I mean myself and my two sons. We hunt out of a camp of guys who have been hunting and (own property around Winthrop) for more than 40 years. There have been probably 25 hunters over the years who have spent time in this camp, hunting with us. We are not "road hunters". We hike miles back in, from Black Canyon to Black Pine Lake to Mazama to Texas Creek to Buck Lake to Tiffany Meadow to Hart's Pass. We have burned a lot of boot leather during deer season, and scouting during the off-season as well. And we have harvested a lot of bucks over the years.

As far as I know, not one of us have ever seen a cougar. We have seen a few tracks in the years when we hunted in the snow, but this idea of a cougar behind every tree just doesn't ring true. I'm not saying that people here are not being truthful, I'm just of the opinion that there may be just a little exaggeration happening. I realize that the mule deer herds are just a small remnant of what they once were. We, too, saw herds of migrating mulies numbering in the hundreds 25-30 years ago. My opinion on the declining herds is that there are many factors contributing to the problem, not just predators.

Flame away...............

[idahohuntr]

So I wonder what's different about the last 25+ years in the methow from the previous tens of thousands of years where virtually unhunted cougars, wolves, and bears co-existed with mule deer? I'm especially curious to hear from those who are arguing human expansion and habitat degradation are not even "on the list" of factors limiting methow mule deer.

Nobody reasonable is suggesting predators aren't an issue.  But to ignore habitat degradation and human expansion is very shortsighted.  Predators and prey can often be cyclical in abundance.  The mule deer herds ability to rebound is dependent on quantity and quality of habitat. Reducing habitat quality or quantity exacerbates predator issues and makes a rebound much, much more difficult. 

Human population data shows the Methow valley growing at twice the rate (% change) as Seattle for the 2010-2017 period.  Combine this with the overall increased population visiting to hunt, hike, atv, snowmobile, shed hunt etc. And add in second homes, development, fires, fencing, etc...and that is where my statement comes from...human expansion and associated habitat degradation is a major long term factor in wildlife abundance across many parts of the western US...and this very basic fact is not mutually exclusive of predator impacts...but I'm always amused at the purity tests applied on this forum where any discussion of impacts from something without claws and teeth is perceived as pushing a liberal conspiracy to end hunting and take your guns. 

[woodswalker]

I echo what bigmacc is and has said, my family moved to the methow in the 1920's, they are all gone now but I was lucky enough to hunt their and still do. There are still VAST areas with NO housing for miles, and like many have said "the deer do quite well in some populated areas. It takes me an hour to get to the nearest little store from camp right now, then another 30 miles to the nearest town.  In the last 5-6 years the deer count has dropped drastically! thats from 5000 ft to 10,000 ft. There are wolves up there, many have seen them, I haven't yet, but they are close. A hunter about 3 miles away had 4 wolves trying to invite his german shepard to dinner,,, luckily the dog was tied up! He yelled and they ran off, but one came back and watched his dog for about 15 minutes. LOTS of cougars and yotes, i've seen them. There are some bears, most seem to be a little lower.
We have sooo many ANTI wildlife hunting people in Washington state right now,, but they love Idaho and are moving there so they can screw up hunting for that state, we all know it's happening.
We'll continue to try to change things back, mostly it will only happen if we vote some of them out of office.
MY

Folks like you, I and others that are old enough or experienced enough to notice the change and because of that can see what MAY be on the horizon are real pains in the a$$ for some folks, including a few on here also I guess . Well when were all gone nobody will know any better, what they have left will be the new normal AND it will be up to THEM to fight for what that new normal is, lets just hope its a fraction of what we have enjoyed. Like I have said many, many times, I hope I am wrong about all this concerning this herd, but everytime I,m out and about in this valley(about 3-4 months out of the year nowadays) my thoughts are reaffirmed.

I have been hunting the Methow since 1982, at which time you had to be trying NOT to get a deer.  Even the camp-sitters usually bagged at least one, Pete took one off the john one year.  Rendezvous , Fawn peak, Buck Mt, Buck Lake, Eightmile were all stomping grounds and we harvested truckloads of deer.  Usually N to N or N-1 for the camp for the season.  As i posted earlier in the thread, it was not hard to see 500-700 deer in the morning...and hard to NOT find one in the higher elevations.  We hiked in off the roads, 1-4 miles usually and seldom saw a cat and never a wolf.  A decade ago we heard wolves at night and were stalked by cats,the take in camp had become N/2 and we WORKED for those... We went higher in the hills, deeper in the roadless areas, went in earlier and stayed later.  Still N/2.  My brother and later I were stalked by cats, he saw 2 taken, on off Cub Ck and one off Rendezvous.  We had a wolf in camp one night, sniffing around the fire and the john.  Tracks in the snow.  5 years ago i was up alone as the rest of the crew(mostly dispersed due to work) couldn't make it. Snowed on my spike camp the night before opener...and i had BOTH cat and wolf tracks in camp when i got up in the morning.  Found easily 4 kills before lunch, another 6-7 before dark...saw 2 deer, scared, moving fast.  I was joined by a partner the next day, they saw only 2 deer, heard wolves and saw the dog in the kennel in the truck bed at the trail head being teased by wolves and a cat. The dog was whimpering.

Yes the fires had an effect, as did logging and its cessation for a long time. But there are a few places where there are new homes where there were not before but the overall habitat has not been greatly reduced in the main.  Mostly the smaller fires and logging tended to provide more browse in a year or so.  There is TONS of good winter range. The real change in my observation is the predator population.  Last year i hiked my boots off between nursing a truck back to health.  Worked HARD from creek bottoms to over 4400 feet dark to dark...and saw less than 60 deer.  And MOST over 30) of those were holed up in town or close in fields.  I saw cat and wolf kills in abundance.  Wolves don't stash deer in trees...Cats do.  Wolves eat a deer while its still alive, I saw several that looked kind of gnawed-on.

WDFW is focusing the attention on the last 5-7 years, but the degradation of the herd has been going on LONG before that, its now just really noticeable. I would like to see herd counts from the 1980s and 90s compared to now  Honest ones and not doctored.

So in summary, the WDFW has (perhaps deliberately- I think so) failed to manage predators in a meaningful way and has in its employ, pro-wolf individuals who will lie like rugs to further their agenda. (Scott Fitkin, I'm talking about you, as well as others)  It certainly feels looks and tastes like Hunters are intended to be an endangered species.  Predators and mismanagement are the tools of our extinction.

[bigmacc]

Are you talking see in person or on cam. It also depends on the area of the Methow. You will see more cougar in the upper part of the valley as opposed to the lower say from Carlton down. Reason being the deer are a lot fewer and far between in the lower Methow.

I was basically asking huntnphool about his experiences because he seems to be knowledgeable about the Methow as well as being objective.  My question would be regarding the part of the Methow say, from Carlton to Washington Pass.  I know that is a huge area, but over the years we have hunted in most of that.



I'm going to stir the pot a little on the subject of predators in the Methow. We have been hunting there for over 30 years. When I say "we", I mean myself and my two sons. We hunt out of a camp of guys who have been hunting and (own property around Winthrop) for more than 40 years. There have been probably 25 hunters over the years who have spent time in this camp, hunting with us. We are not "road hunters". We hike miles back in, from Black Canyon to Black Pine Lake to Mazama to Texas Creek to Buck Lake to Tiffany Meadow to Hart's Pass. We have burned a lot of boot leather during deer season, and scouting during the off-season as well. And we have harvested a lot of bucks over the years.

As far as I know, not one of us have ever seen a cougar. We have seen a few tracks in the years when we hunted in the snow, but this idea of a cougar behind every tree just doesn't ring true. I'm not saying that people here are not being truthful, I'm just of the opinion that there may be just a little exaggeration happening. I realize that the mule deer herds are just a small remnant of what they once were. We, too, saw herds of migrating mulies numbering in the hundreds 25-30 years ago. My opinion on the declining herds is that there are many factors contributing to the problem, not just predators.

Flame away...............

Igor, I am not speaking for phool but I will chime in if I may because some of those areas you mentioned we HAVE seen predators in, also I will speak for myself, I have never said there was a "cougar behind every tree" but there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was 30 years ago and I have said the departments estimates of predator numbers seem very low and deer numbers seem very high(compared to what we are seeing), once again over 100 years involved here but like I have said in previous posts the majority by far has been over the last 25 or so years, I will not mention areas specifically but most were in the north valley. I believe we have have seen a total of 4 cats in the Tiffany/Boulder/Baldy area, one was killed last year after we told a couple other guys about it and they killed it, another year we seen a BIG cat on a bluff watching us from behind, we don't know how long he had been watching us but when my partner noticed the tail swiping back and forth like a house cat ready to pounce on a mouse he spun his rifle around and took a snap shot at it as it leaped about 20ft and disappeared, the cat was about 40 feet from us, around 7-8 years ago we seen 2 up in the Tiffany area, 1 during a pre season scouting trip and 1 big cat that same year during hunting season that  had a collar. This area is where we found over 20 cached kills, partially eaten, some fresh enough to see cat sign in the dirt, the area was void of deer. The Eight Mile/Buck Lake/Doe Mt/Fawn Creek area is probably responsible for around 6-7 sightings, last year we seen 1 up in there at about 500 yards, slinking along a ridgeline, I seen 2 up in the Buck Lake area a few years ago while fishing, right by the boat launch spot! A pardner seen one while hunting up on Fawn, told a camp nearby and they killed it a couple days later, if I remember right a kid got it . I seen a huge cat sitting on a rock bluff about 12 years ago on private property, my wife and I were watching a small bunch of deer about 100 yards from us, there was a nice big 4 by5 in the group and they did nothing but look uphill as we whistled at them to try and get them to look at us so we could get a good look at him, the deer just stared up hill, ears forward, could care less about us, we looked up the hill and there was the cat, about 50 yards up on a rock outcropping, waiting for the deer to move up hill, the deer(after about a 3 min stare down) eventually spun and got off that hillside like they were shot out of a cannon. I can go over more, but you get the idea, like I said in my other post above for Idahohuntr) check out some of my other posts that I highlighted earlier that are in this thread. I also have known a few local folks over the years, some were ranchers, farmers, hunters and packers, some are still around, most are gone. Some have found cached kills in hay bails, some have found kills under their house, some have been stalked going to the crapper in the high country and some have seen them in their garage. Bottom line, they will all tell you, "cats are a problem for these deer and there are a hell of a lot more of them than there used to be in this valley"..didnt mean to step on phools input but thought I could also contribute on your question, don't even get me started on bear over the last 25 years .. I also agree and have said many, many times, there are a number of issues that have contributed to the decline of this herd, through my experience, observations, conversations and aquaintances going back 100 years, my opinion is the number 1 cause of the decline of this herd is predators and you know what number 2 and 3 are. Whatever anyones elses opinion is is fine by me, bottom line is there are a lot less deer in this valley than there was 25-30 years ago and it seems every year is worse and worse, all I have done is try to have an open mind and connect the dots of what has happened over the last 25 or so years to cause this decline, and that is my opinion and .



If I may add, I will say the majority of cats and bears we have seen have been north of Twisp, very rarely have we seen cats or bear south of there, lots of yotes though, we did see a cat up Gold creek around 15 years ago and we seen another one up by Alta lake while fishing about 8 or 9 years ago.

[bigmacc]

So I wonder what's different about the last 25+ years in the methow from the previous tens of thousands of years where virtually unhunted cougars, wolves, and bears co-existed with mule deer? I'm especially curious to hear from those who are arguing human expansion and habitat degradation are not even "on the list" of factors limiting methow mule deer.

Nobody reasonable is suggesting predators aren't an issue.  But to ignore habitat degradation and human expansion is very shortsighted.  Predators and prey can often be cyclical in abundance.  The mule deer herds ability to rebound is dependent on quantity and quality of habitat. Reducing habitat quality or quantity exacerbates predator issues and makes a rebound much, much more difficult. 

Human population data shows the Methow valley growing at twice the rate (% change) as Seattle for the 2010-2017 period.  Combine this with the overall increased population visiting to hunt, hike, atv, snowmobile, shed hunt etc. And add in second homes, development, fires, fencing, etc...and that is where my statement comes from...human expansion and associated habitat degradation is a major long term factor in wildlife abundance across many parts of the western US...and this very basic fact is not mutually exclusive of predator impacts...but I'm always amused at the purity tests applied on this forum where any discussion of impacts from something without claws and teeth is perceived as pushing a liberal conspiracy to end hunting and take your guns. 

You are entitled to your opinion and I would respect it more if you actually spent a lot of time in the Methow Valley, hunting it, fishing it, scouting it, recreating in it or even living in it and like some on here,  we/they have been doing those things for a long, long time and even then, some of us sometimes still see things differently but still respect each others observations and opinions concerning the Methow Valley, which is what this topic concerns. As most of us have said many, many times, there are a lot of reasons this herd is not even a shadow of what it once was and most(not all) of us agree, from our observations, after spending many, many years roaming this valley that the decline DOES have a lot to do with things that have "claws and teeth". It seems you like to argue and in this case argue about an areas problem you really have no history or experience with, once again we are all entitled to our opinions and like my dad used to say "some guys have better opinions than others, I,ll listen to the one formed by experience everytime"

[Igor]

This about covers things here:

[idaho guy]

Are you talking see in person or on cam. It also depends on the area of the Methow. You will see more cougar in the upper part of the valley as opposed to the lower say from Carlton down. Reason being the deer are a lot fewer and far between in the lower Methow.

I was basically asking huntnphool about his experiences because he seems to be knowledgeable about the Methow as well as being objective.  My question would be regarding the part of the Methow say, from Carlton to Washington Pass.  I know that is a huge area, but over the years we have hunted in most of that.



I'm going to stir the pot a little on the subject of predators in the Methow. We have been hunting there for over 30 years. When I say "we", I mean myself and my two sons. We hunt out of a camp of guys who have been hunting and (own property around Winthrop) for more than 40 years. There have been probably 25 hunters over the years who have spent time in this camp, hunting with us. We are not "road hunters". We hike miles back in, from Black Canyon to Black Pine Lake to Mazama to Texas Creek to Buck Lake to Tiffany Meadow to Hart's Pass. We have burned a lot of boot leather during deer season, and scouting during the off-season as well. And we have harvested a lot of bucks over the years.

As far as I know, not one of us have ever seen a cougar. We have seen a few tracks in the years when we hunted in the snow, but this idea of a cougar behind every tree just doesn't ring true. I'm not saying that people here are not being truthful, I'm just of the opinion that there may be just a little exaggeration happening. I realize that the mule deer herds are just a small remnant of what they once were. We, too, saw herds of migrating mulies numbering in the hundreds 25-30 years ago. My opinion on the declining herds is that there are many factors contributing to the problem, not just predators.

Flame away...............

Seeing a lion is rare even when they are abundant. I spend 3-4 months a year hound hunting every year and have seen hundreds upon hundreds of cats with my dogs but have only seen 3 or 4 without dogs in my lifetime. Something to consider they are definitely stealthy. I probably shouldn’t even be in this discussion I just get frustrated when fellow hunters don’t seem to acknowledge facts that seem to be staring them in the face. Not your post but others. There will always be a multitude of issues for mule deer but this situation seems obviously predators and there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here saying so

[MAVsled]

"...It’s no big deal now to see wolves on a regular basis, and talk about shooting cougars and wolves etc. is open. "You know what to do” is the language used. There is even talk of LEO’s encouraging the same...."

2018: I saw 2 different big cats, big bear (sure looked grizzly like) and 3 wolves hunting high area of Little Bridge creek/Gardner unit. These spottings took place far from the gated forest road, climbing/hunting high & up to the horse trail & camp areas.
it was bad enough that a camp/hunting friend was shot up there by another "hunter" last year too. But they were down by the forest road....figures.
And after yet another bad winter, I'm probably skipping the area this year.

2017: I saw 4 wolves on my late November Teanaway archery muley buck permit...and very few deer. Perfect hunt conditions, cold, fresh snow the last 6 hunt days. Little did I know that the small 2point at 25 yards on my first day would be my only opportunity. Not filling my special permit buck tag after a successive 11 days hunt, first time for a permit tag soup for me.
But seeing those wolves now 2 years in a row just gave me a bad feeling that my fave muley hunt areas are going by the wayside...and quickly.

The quoted statement above from those "locals" talking just won't be followed by me. Those LOCALS would probably turn my butt in to the WDFW if they witnessed me do such a thing as they suggest.

darn glad I have my memories of the late 60's, 70's.

[Alchase]

In all the years I hunted the Methow, I saw one cougar. Between 1986 and 2000 I would see a couple cougar kills a year. In the last few years, I have seen Many kills each year. Wolves are now active throughout the Methow, if hunters are not seeing the signs, honestly they can’t be paying attention.