Were wolves imported into Washington on the downlow?

[jackelope]

It means boots on the ground Pman.   Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place.   In other words I guess Social media has influenced you.  Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it?  Why would you need to see the evidence?  Has it impacted your life in Vancouver?  Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.

Does that help?

and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.

No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.

I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.

As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.

When you say GYA do you mean the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem?

[bigmacc]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Its a good point.  Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet.  Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.

Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then  So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.

These days, I would have known about the finger injury before that kindling was making heat. The bucks you guys killed would have been known about before they were quartered up and packed off the mountain.

 .....yep, I get it........ I still have an open enough mind to believe that not all wolves (in the Methow anyway) migrated into that Valley, I do believe they have been in there off and on for a long,long time and some have bounced back and forth over the border, just like other wildlife has but like the packer told me, the way it happened, the area it happened in and the timeframe in which it happened equals one thing- "they needed help" for it to happen the way it did and for the numbers to basically explode over such a relatively short time frame. The one thing he kept saying was "why didn't they take over the north part of the valley" in the 80,s and 90,s if they were coming out of Canada.  He said he asked that question numerous times and was told "we don't know".

[idahohuntr]

It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA. 

Leaves us with 2 choices:

1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence

2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA. 

[pianoman9701]

It means boots on the ground Pman.   Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place.   In other words I guess Social media has influenced you.  Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it?  Why would you need to see the evidence?  Has it impacted your life in Vancouver?  Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.

Does that help?

and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.

No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.

I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.

As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.

When you say GYA do you mean the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem?

Yes, the Greater Yellowstone Area

[boneaddict]

Thats the nice thing about not depending on or being influenced by social media ....I can ignore your irrelevant opinion. 

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA. 

As pro wolf as you are, I almost bet you were part of it.   Its usually easier to point and deny that way.   

[KFhunter]

It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA. 

Leaves us with 2 choices:

1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence

2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.

3. They're telling the truth but not everyone carries a camera 24/7

You're calling a lot of people liars there hoss, but I think you should look in the mirror before you sling that insult.   
Some good upstanding folks seen what they seen, and I'll believe them over some agenda driven skyscreamer slinging insults on the interwebs. 

[buckfvr]

It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA. 

Leaves us with 2 choices:

1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence

2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.

It leaves YOU with two choices.......others of us have considerably more open minds based on many, many years of watching and learning from deceitful agencies who are quite capable of making things happen when no one is paying attention, and yes, some of it is eventually found out much later or when its politically favorable/convenient.  If you cant think of anything off hand, then yes, I understand you being a 2 choicer, glass full, glass empty person.

[jackelope]

I believe that wolves disperse, claim new territories and form new packs. Wolves have big home ranges.  Wolf pups mature and have to find new territory.  The more wolves, the more newly adult wolves have to find new territories.. The more new territories that are established, the more new packs establish. Could some wolves have been helped in finding their way into the Methow or the NE part of the state? Sure.
I used to ask for evidence of wolves getting released. I asked because of posts in 2009 like this excerpt is from.

They planted some more this spring on the new game department land they bought this spring. They were trying to claim that these wolves just move in on their own, but then KER-Blam they got caught let them out of crates. I saw wolves in here 4 years ago and so did some other folks, and they been multipling every since.

I stopped asking for evidence a while back because I realized I was never going to get it. Others did too. Some folks newer to the forum are asking again for evidence. You're not going to get it. Don't waste your breath. And I wasn't asking for evidence of anything from the 80's or 90's. I, along with a lot of others on the forum, was asking for evidence in 2009 when these claims were made.

[KFhunter]

I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted. 

[jackelope]

I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted. 

Can you be more specific?

[idahohuntr]

As pro wolf as you are, I almost bet you were part of it.   Its usually easier to point and deny that way.

 

I'm not pro-wolf, I'm pro-facts. 

[KFhunter]

I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted. 

Can you be more specific?

If we could all get past this one I'd be happy. 
"wolves only target the sick and wounded thereby strengthening the herds health"

[pianoman9701]

  That one shouldn't be too hard to get past - Lie! 

[bigmacc]

It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA. 

Leaves us with 2 choices:

1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence

2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.

Speaking for myself, I have never wore a tin foil hat and I know a lot of good folks that have never wore them, I also know folks who overtime, that are not agreed with, continuously accuse others of wearing them, with due respect, I may now know of another. I guess some of YOUR thoughts and questions can be directed back in your direction, for instance your #2 from above, do you know for a fact and have 100% on the ground evidence that all wolves in this state have NOT been transplanted or brought in by WDFW or anyone else for that matter, either above board or in secret and if not,  it doesn't mean your wearing a tin foil hat or a conspiracist, it means you believe something that you read or were told by someone, just like some of us believe what we were told by people we believe or respect. I don't think ANY OF US knows for sure how all these wolves got into certain parts of this state and how/why it happened when it did but like I said, just speaking for myself, I refuse to be closed minded or naive to the point I won't see and hear all ideas and thoughts and as for me I believe some have wandered into parts of this state, I think some have migrated in looking for food sources, I think some very, very small numbers have been in some remote places for decades and decades but I also can see how they may have been brought into or introduced into certain areas, for some of these spots where wolves are today and the way they "appeared" with the numbers being present, there is no explanation other than getting "some help" and then too on the other hand, in certain areas you can see how the migratory/wandering theory could be spot on. In some cases all the dots connect quite nicely, and in other cases they don't.

[Buckhunter24]

It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA. 

Leaves us with 2 choices:

1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence

2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.

Folks - reject the tinfoil hats.  Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.

Speaking for myself, I have never wore a tin foil hat and I know a lot of good folks that have never wore them, I also know folks who overtime, that are not agreed with, continuously accuse others of wearing them, with due respect, I may now know of another. I guess some of YOUR thoughts and questions can be directed back in your direction, for instance your #2 from above, do you know for a fact and have 100% on the ground evidence that all wolves in this state have NOT been transplanted or brought in by WDFW or anyone else for that matter, either above board or in secret and if not,  it doesn't mean your wearing a tin foil hat or a conspiracist, it means you believe something that you read or were told by someone, just like some of us believe what we were told by people we believe or respect. I don't think ANY OF US knows for sure how all these wolves got into certain parts of this state and how/why it happened when it did but like I said, just speaking for myself, I refuse to be closed minded or naive to the point I won't see and hear all ideas and thoughts and as for me I believe some have wandered into parts of this state, I think some have migrated in looking for food sources, I think some very, very small numbers have been in some remote places for decades and decades but I also can see how they may have been brought into or introduced into certain areas, for some of these spots where wolves are today and the way they "appeared" with the numbers being present, there is no explanation other than getting "some help" and then too on the other hand, in certain areas you can see how the migratory/wandering theory could be spot on. In some cases all the dots connect quite nicely, and in other cases they don't.

This is a really well written post, pretty much exactly how I see it