Should Washington Move to a Draw Only Management for Yakima, Colockum, and Blues

[Limhangerslayer]

I thought it was draw only except spikes?   There are no spikes so doesn’t matter but yea if question is no spike tags yea do it.

Yeah would transfer the spike harvest to a draw only system where those elk are taken as 2-10 year old bulls. Talked with the Elk bio in Yakima and he said there are 10,11, and 12 year old bulls running around that never get taken and die of old age on a regular basis. He even darted a 16 year old so the current tag allocation under this system isn't allowing enough hunter the option to take branch bulls. This happens in part because the WDFW has to cross their fingers hoping that the general season harvests the amount of bulls they hope it to rather than potentially slaughtering them on year and killing most of the bulls that will escape to become mature animals

its been spike only for 29 years on the Yakima herd.  Plenty of them make it through, we saw a dozen different spikes in early April in the Cowiche unit.  The herd had 40-50 total.  People get discouraged quick every year, but at least you get to go chase some elk around.  So absolutely in no way go draw only, completely stupid idea

[dvolmer]

Yep like everyone is going to say tribes will shoot them all anyways. There’s no point in anything we do management wise because they don’t follow any of our restrictions. Anything we do to try to increase our opportunity will be taken advantage of by them long before we are ever able to reap the rewards. And as all will say this is the one group in the entire world that has inalienable rights no matter what. So I guess I would say I agree let’s just open it up to the same exact “season”as the tribes. Give it a year or two we will have almost no elk and they will be knocking on WDFW’s door to try to work with them.

Very good insight!!!!  you nailed it!

[dvolmer]

In the last 5 years or less, the native hunting has went from a sustenance hunt for many natives to a massive kill off for profit by a few.  It has decimated the elk herds in general and the predator problem has taken its toll.  Put that with a couple of bad winters and you have a recipe for destruction.  That is why you see so many disenchanted folks on the forum.  Anyone that has hunted elk in this state for 20 years plus has seen it go in the toilet.  Yes, there are a few spots that are not as affected as others , but in general it has taken its toll.  You will see it in the MASSIVE decline in cow and big bull permit numbers in the Yakima, Clockum, and Blue's herds.  You will also see it in the decreased harvest percentages in our state.  Its a simple fact that a few natives that have a new recent nation wide booming elk jerky business and the huge increase in the value of a mature 6x6 set of elk horns has taken a huge impact on the masses.  Yes I agree with a lot of folks on here when they say "that there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it".  I hate to think that I agree with some on here that think we should have the same seasons as the natives have, but what is to be done???  It is the only thing that would probably EVENTUALLY (but man would it be disastrous) fix the problem.  But just like the natives never being brought under control, neither would WDFW ever agree to the seasons or reasoning behind it.  In the long term, we are screwed.  There is really no other way to look at it.  That is really sad!  And everyone is wondering why it is getting harder to get a decent tag in Montana and Wyoming now.   Its because the Washington hunters that actually want an elk hunt instead of a fall camping trip are moving on and out of Washington.

[bobdog86]

Speaking only of SE WA, as that’s the area I’m most familiar with, everyone talks about the Yakima’s or Colville’s, but the Nez Perce put a real smack down on the elk in the Blues, and most of them live in Idaho.  Until we address the elephant in the room, any type of a draw only plan, really would do nothing but  allow them more opportunity...seriously. The only option that I would consider is something similar to Idaho, one app, one unit per hunter. Aside from that, forget it.

[Colville]

Push polls are bu//$&!t.  Ask a straight Q you get straight answers.  Tell me the wrong answer in the question and pound sand, even if I agree with your premise.

[hunterofelk]

For me, I say leave it the way it is. Every elk I've killed in Washington was on a special permit.  If the consensus is opportunity for all, tribal and rest, I say put it back to any bull.  When I moved here and started elk hunting in the Naches drainage, I thought it was crazy busy elk season, people all over, but people were killing bulls.  Granted, I would go to the feed lots in the winter and see only a couple of mature bulls and find maybe a couple sheds in the spring.  Still, I think there were more people elk hunting in Washington then now.  Having grown up in Montana and then moving to Washington in my late twenties, comparing the elk hunting in the two states, it is kind of similar hunting conditions.  Montana has a longer season, but most elk are killed in the first days.  Washington the same, except shorter season.  Ask any Montana resident what their biggest concern is and they'll likely say private land.  All the elk run to private holdings where hunting by the public is not allowed. 

[villajac29]

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation


 

In the last 5 years or less, the native hunting has went from a sustenance hunt for many natives to a massive kill off for profit by a few.  It has decimated the elk herds in general and the predator problem has taken its toll.  Put that with a couple of bad winters and you have a recipe for destruction.  That is why you see so many disenchanted folks on the forum.  Anyone that has hunted elk in this state for 20 years plus has seen it go in the toilet.  Yes, there are a few spots that are not as affected as others , but in general it has taken its toll.  You will see it in the MASSIVE decline in cow and big bull permit numbers in the Yakima, Clockum, and Blue's herds.  You will also see it in the decreased harvest percentages in our state.  Its a simple fact that a few natives that have a new recent nation wide booming elk jerky business and the huge increase in the value of a mature 6x6 set of elk horns has taken a huge impact on the masses.  Yes I agree with a lot of folks on here when they say "that there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it".  I hate to think that I agree with some on here that think we should have the same seasons as the natives have, but what is to be done???  It is the only thing that would probably EVENTUALLY (but man would it be disastrous) fix the problem.  But just like the natives never being brought under control, neither would WDFW ever agree to the seasons or reasoning behind it.  In the long term, we are screwed.  There is really no other way to look at it.  That is really sad!  And everyone is wondering why it is getting harder to get a decent tag in Montana and Wyoming now.   Its because the Washington hunters that actually want an elk hunt instead of a fall camping trip are moving on and out of Washington.

[stw]

It amazes me how people want to give up elk hunting and your rught to elk hunt to go to a draw and then when you don't  draw a tag you'll cry about it and how you can't elk hunt
You won't see the tribes , wolves, cougars crying they all be eat elk. 

[villajac29]

For me, I say leave it the way it is. Every elk I've killed in Washington was on a special permit.  If the consensus is opportunity for all, tribal and rest, I say put it back to any bull.  When I moved here and started elk hunting in the Naches drainage, I thought it was crazy busy elk season, people all over, but people were killing bulls.  Granted, I would go to the feed lots in the winter and see only a couple of mature bulls and find maybe a couple sheds in the spring.  Still, I think there were more people elk hunting in Washington then now.  Having grown up in Montana and then moving to Washington in my late twenties, comparing the elk hunting in the two states, it is kind of similar hunting conditions.  Montana has a longer season, but most elk are killed in the first days.  Washington the same, except shorter season.  Ask any Montana resident what their biggest concern is and they'll likely say private land.  All the elk run to private holdings where hunting by the public is not allowed.

The reason they went to a spike only management is because their is biological studies that show that bull to cow ratios that low and diminished age class reduces breeding effectiveness which in the long run has diminishing returns on opportunity and sustainability. And the problem about you killing elk on special permits is that their availability will continue to decrease to where many people will support this management with tag and application sales but never get rewarded for those applications. People put in for special permits because it represents something special and exciting. Why not increase that special and exciting experience rather than offer up ideas like more crowded woods and less elk. Nevada and Arizona have some of the most envied elk hunting in the western states and not only for antler size but for success rates as well. They do this with smaller elk herds and draw only systems. We are lucky enough to have ~30-40,000 roosevelts to pull from let along a fairly strong rocky mountain herd but no one bats an eye at Washington. The public prospective will have to change, everyone is used to hunting being a right but if we were less competitive about our piece of the pie then we would likely have better experiences out in the woods.

[Cougartail]

Reduce our take to produce larger bulls so the Yakama's have bigger horns to sell on the Rez.

Makes perfect sense to me..

[Skillet]

The public prospective will have to change, everyone is used to hunting being a right but if we were less competitive about our piece of the pie then we would likely have better experiences out in the woods.

Look, I appreciate your time and effort in this, but you keep making the same claim about better experiences in the woods.  You are looking at it only through your perspective of fewer hunters+more branched bulls=quality experience, and assuming everybody else does too. 

But they don't. What you're offering up is fewer hunters+more branched bulls=less hunting opportunity, to many folks.

I've come to believe the vast majority of Washington elk hunters just want to be in the woods every year with their friends and family, have a chance to hang a tag on an elk. Whatever that chance may be.  Yes, they may frequently complain about the pumpkin patch, but they still go, year after year. It's not "quality" as you may see it, but it's still a hunt they can look forward to every year with friends and family. That's some of the highest quality time there is for a lot of folks.  What you're offering in exchange for that doesn't level the scale.

 

[Fishmaker57]

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation


 

In the last 5 years or less, the native hunting has went from a sustenance hunt for many natives to a massive kill off for profit by a few.  It has decimated the elk herds in general and the predator problem has taken its toll.  Put that with a couple of bad winters and you have a recipe for destruction.  That is why you see so many disenchanted folks on the forum.  Anyone that has hunted elk in this state for 20 years plus has seen it go in the toilet.  Yes, there are a few spots that are not as affected as others , but in general it has taken its toll.  You will see it in the MASSIVE decline in cow and big bull permit numbers in the Yakima, Clockum, and Blue's herds.  You will also see it in the decreased harvest percentages in our state.  Its a simple fact that a few natives that have a new recent nation wide booming elk jerky business and the huge increase in the value of a mature 6x6 set of elk horns has taken a huge impact on the masses.  Yes I agree with a lot of folks on here when they say "that there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it".  I hate to think that I agree with some on here that think we should have the same seasons as the natives have, but what is to be done???  It is the only thing that would probably EVENTUALLY (but man would it be disastrous) fix the problem.  But just like the natives never being brought under control, neither would WDFW ever agree to the seasons or reasoning behind it.  In the long term, we are screwed.  There is really no other way to look at it.  That is really sad!  And everyone is wondering why it is getting harder to get a decent tag in Montana and Wyoming now.   Its because the Washington hunters that actually want an elk hunt instead of a fall camping trip are moving on and out of Washington.

I agree with many of the points made here; there are multiple reasons for declining herds, but the causative agent in all is...LACK OF MANAGEMENT!!!!  Predators; completely  in the control of WDFW. Wolves are a sticky issue, with Federal rules to deal with, but in Eastern Washington, WDFW could push for further de-listings and control measures....if the managed the resource as charged. Bears and Cats: completely in WDFW's control. Management objectives for both species is far above targets in multiple areas, open the limit up to control the populations. Obviously baiting and hounds would help tremendously, but we all know the liberals will never allow that to happen.

Tribal hunting: WDFW has the ability to do several things to manage this; close WDFW lands to vehicles, work with DNR to do the same in areas where further management is needed to obtain objectives; conservation closures: WDFW has the ability to declare these types of management closures to protect the resources.

Winter kill: again, conservation closures and road closures in areas hardest hit. Volunteer feeding programs: again, completely in the control of WDFW, but resisted due to notion that this actually does more harm than good. No science to back up these claims, just the newer, book smart Biologists who know nothing of the history of programs like this.

We hunters are faced with a very complex problem, that WDFW tries it's best to ignore, because making a decision that is viewed as controversial is not in their credo. Their job is to manage the resource; not for the public, not for the Tribes, but for the good of the resource; something they have forgotten long ago. As sportsmen (and women), we need to get organized. Easy thing to say, much harder to do. There are literally hundreds of sports groups in Washington, with thousands of members; each speaking on their individual issues. It doesn't really matter if each groups issue is deer, elk, turkeys, pheasants, ducks, fish......the bottom line is lack of management by WDFW.

If all these groups were invited to a summit, where thousands of people could gather and develop a charter (with signatures) that outlined the mandate for true, science based management, maybe we could get the politicians to listen. Recognizing that this mandate would be restricted to only issues within WDFW's control, we could make a difference. We can't waste time on federal and ESA topics; that dog won't hunt. There are a myriad of issues that is within their control, if forced to manage!

This state benefits from millions of dollars in tax revenue from hunting and fishing, but the politicians have never fully recognized the full impact, and therefore only apportion less than 1% of the general fund to natural resource. This can change, and must if we intend on saving our fish and wildlife from the agency that has contributed to driving the resource into the ground....all due to a LACK OF MANAGEMENT!!

Ok.....off my soapbox....for now! 

[jstone]

This will never be fixed

[trophyhunt]

In the last 5 years or less, the native hunting has went from a sustenance hunt for many natives to a massive kill off for profit by a few.  It has decimated the elk herds in general and the predator problem has taken its toll.  Put that with a couple of bad winters and you have a recipe for destruction.  That is why you see so many disenchanted folks on the forum.  Anyone that has hunted elk in this state for 20 years plus has seen it go in the toilet.  Yes, there are a few spots that are not as affected as others , but in general it has taken its toll.  You will see it in the MASSIVE decline in cow and big bull permit numbers in the Yakima, Clockum, and Blue's herds.  You will also see it in the decreased harvest percentages in our state.  Its a simple fact that a few natives that have a new recent nation wide booming elk jerky business and the huge increase in the value of a mature 6x6 set of elk horns has taken a huge impact on the masses.  Yes I agree with a lot of folks on here when they say "that there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it".  I hate to think that I agree with some on here that think we should have the same seasons as the natives have, but what is to be done???  It is the only thing that would probably EVENTUALLY (but man would it be disastrous) fix the problem.  But just like the natives never being brought under control, neither would WDFW ever agree to the seasons or reasoning behind it.  In the long term, we are screwed.  There is really no other way to look at it.  That is really sad!  And everyone is wondering why it is getting harder to get a decent tag in Montana and Wyoming now.   Its because the Washington hunters that actually want an elk hunt instead of a fall camping trip are moving on and out of Washington.

100% true!  What will happen I think, especially with the support of many on here, is it will go to draw only!  And the false sense of draw only helping will just mean less hunting and no increase in herds.

[vandeman17]

In the last 5 years or less, the native hunting has went from a sustenance hunt for many natives to a massive kill off for profit by a few.  It has decimated the elk herds in general and the predator problem has taken its toll.  Put that with a couple of bad winters and you have a recipe for destruction.  That is why you see so many disenchanted folks on the forum.  Anyone that has hunted elk in this state for 20 years plus has seen it go in the toilet.  Yes, there are a few spots that are not as affected as others , but in general it has taken its toll.  You will see it in the MASSIVE decline in cow and big bull permit numbers in the Yakima, Clockum, and Blue's herds.  You will also see it in the decreased harvest percentages in our state.  Its a simple fact that a few natives that have a new recent nation wide booming elk jerky business and the huge increase in the value of a mature 6x6 set of elk horns has taken a huge impact on the masses.  Yes I agree with a lot of folks on here when they say "that there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it".  I hate to think that I agree with some on here that think we should have the same seasons as the natives have, but what is to be done???  It is the only thing that would probably EVENTUALLY (but man would it be disastrous) fix the problem.  But just like the natives never being brought under control, neither would WDFW ever agree to the seasons or reasoning behind it.  In the long term, we are screwed.  There is really no other way to look at it.  That is really sad!  And everyone is wondering why it is getting harder to get a decent tag in Montana and Wyoming now.   Its because the Washington hunters that actually want an elk hunt instead of a fall camping trip are moving on and out of Washington.

100% true!  What will happen I think, especially with the support of many on here, is it will go to draw only!  And the false sense of draw only helping will just mean less hunting and no increase in herds.

Until the natives that hunt these areas actually track and report their harvest, its all speculation. I am a believer in starting out with a list of many variables that could be effecting elk numbers and then trying to chip away at them through facts and data. Many of the proposed factors are quantifiable to a certain extent through surveys, studies etc but the Native Harvest aspect is the big unknown and until that can be somewhat accurately factored in, I don't know what the best option is.