Master Hunters VOICE LOUD AND CLEAR!!!

[KillBilly]

We have talked about the master hunters and the common hunter but what about the hunters with disabilities how do they fit in. I have a good friend who has a disability card and every year he comes over and we try to figure what hunt would be best for him to put in for. He works and has little time off so he has to hunt the west side and he has to have help if he gets to hunt. WE got to talking about opportunity and disability verses master hunter came up. He brought a 2007 hunting regulation to show me the new direction the state is going. In 2007 masterhunters had 35 hunts to put in for with 440 permits to put in for including the second elk tag that did;nt effect points. Disabled hunters had 15 to choose from with 83 permits to choose from and 10 hunts were westside. In 2009 master hunters had 36 hunts to put in for with 572 permits avalable many of the hunts not effecting accumulated points. The disabled hunter this year has 13 hunts to choose from with only 6 on the west side with 26 permits available and only 63 permits for the whole state for the disabled. It sure sounds unfair to my friend they took all the hunts away that were close to our area and he does;nt know what to do. Can they maybe start a master hunting program for the disabled so he would have some hunting opportunity or maybe the master hunters could earn more points by taking a handicapped person hunting anyway my friend thinks the state just took him right out of elk hunting. Pumice plains is going to come back on us there are to many eyes on that hunt.

Your friend can become a MH, I know he can because I am both. Being a disabled hunter does not prevent one from participating in the MH Program. again, don't sit outside looking in, have your friend join us.

[Bob33]

I'm not a disabled individual, so I don't know how they feel about it, but it is legal in Washington for a disabled hunter to use a ""Designated hunter companion".  This companion can assist a hunter with a disability in the stalking, shooting, tracking, retrieving, or tagging of game birds and game animals.

[bbarnes]

I would like to clear the air about my concerns of master hunters.Like i have said in many threads on this page,my hats off to the over achievers in the world.First i would like to address the pumice plain tags because myself and mark smith, were the ones who created that opportunity.The problem is it was to be and opportunity for everyone and,to help the struggling Forest Service and WDFW.The plan was offer a 100 dollar chance to harvest a mature bull with a quality hunt.There would be 15 total tags divided evenly between the three user groups,rotating each year to give each group a chance to hunt the rut.If 200,000 thousand people tried for this tag that would be 20 million dollars,this would be split in half between the Forest Service and WDFW.One million going to law enforcement,to help with the poaching problem up there.This was first brought up at the mt saint helen's summit meeting two and a half years ago by myself to congressman baird, trying to get hunting opportunity's brought back to an area that has been closed since 1980.I had also convinced Tom Mulder the monument manager this could disperse some of the elk from the area and it could then start to recover.There has never been a nucence problem with these animal, and it wasn't a public problem because most of the time theres no one up there anyway tom said.So i figured after 25 years i would have the chance to hunt, along with others in a area i hunted as a boy.As we all know this was not to be it has gone to the M H program.The problem i see with this is it has limited us all.Many members and hunters i know think this is Federal land and should be open to all of us.There own monument plan states the public would have open access,10 years after the mountain blew.To a great deal of people the issue of discrimination has come up, even if hunting is a privilege not a right.The program was set up for nuisance or problem animals and has evolved into as many would say a private hunt club.Now before you beat me down i will say this is not for me, my time i feel is better spent going to county commmissin meetings wdfw meetings trying to limit urban sprawl, because we all know there not building any other land.Also i have been meeting with Federal state and county politions showing them if we keep building out there will be nothing left for are wildlife.In turn that means nothing left for us to hunt either, or recreational appreciate.
I would hole heartedly agree our sport needs more ethics responsibility and sportsmanship,or we will continue to be viewed by other in a bad light.My family and i have hunted this area and have left without a trace since the 1930s, I'm a third generation user of this area and my 3 children are the 4th.My job my family and non profit group take all my time, weather its cleaning up the woods or raising awareness to others who are uninformed.The program is not for everyone and has raised concerns with many,maybe a good fix for everyone would be a continuing education program.This would require all hunters to attend a three hour class a year, to refresh them on whats expected rules and regulations.This could bridge the gap between hunters and the WDFW possibly gaining some support for them.This would be a opportunities to exchange new ideas, and maybe get rid of some old ones.In closing i would encourage everyone to get involved in your county's issues, and issues where we all recreate.Encourage the WDFW to show up and and voice concern over wildlife areas that are being developed.B Barnes keeping public lands public.

[Little Dave]

The problem is it was to be and opportunity for everyone and,to help the struggling Forest Service and WDFW.The plan was offer a 100 dollar chance to harvest a mature bull with a quality hunt.There would be 15 total tags divided evenly between the three user groups,rotating each year to give each group a chance to hunt the rut.If 200,000 thousand people tried for this tag ...

It is an intersting idea.  Being a fee for a chance, I'd classify it as a raffle.

I've had it with fees though.  A few years ago filing fees for state documents was something nominal like zero to $5.00.  A few years ago the state realized that it could increase the filing fee to support some other pet project.  The fees for filing documents shot up to $40 per document in just two years... like when you start a business, when you buy a house, stuff like that.  Last night the state house approved a bill to raise this fee another $20 or so to support homeless programs.

My point is... introduce a fee for a chance with an introductory low price but be prepared to see the price go up real soon... particularly if the politicians think that nobody is looking.  I don't want $100 (to soon become $2000) raffle hunts all over the state.

Looks like there were a few hundred applications last year at the normal application price. I suppose it would be unlikely that 200 thousand hunters would buy in.  For example, it wouldn't make any sense for me considering the number of prime hunting locations between here and there that are not in a park setting.

[furbearer365]

So many of the MH who are arguing still don't get it.  I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good.  I understand the whole argument about how the elk have ravaged a farmers land in Eastern Washington and he has many expenses to repair what they have done, but what does that have to do with MT St Helens elk for instance.  Do we need a program of this sort to "fix the problem."  It will take some serious arguing to convince me that anyone who is a MH became one for any other reason than the benefits of the EXTRA hunting opportunities.  Anyone can donate time and go above and beyond the call of duty to help without getting the extra tags.  If you didn't do it for the tags than why join, why not just donate your time and do it for yourself without the "reward."  But then again, now days even some of the most giving still want something in return, right.  No one said we hate Master hunters, we hate the program and what it does.

[bbarnes]

Reply to LITTLE DAVE the reason there were only 200 or so people that applied is it was only open to M H.Imagine how many would have tried otherwise,also i hate the fee's seems we pay enough of them.I was trying to think out side the box, to get other hunting oppertunity's for all of us in a area that could be a quality hunt.Look at the new game reg's and you will see extra oppertunity's,they start august 1 way ahead of all the other groups and end in some areas in march 31.Seems to me this is way over presuing the animals and we need a season for county commisioners who allow development in wildlife areas and winter ranges.B Barnes keeping public lands public.

[Little Dave]

I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good....If you didn't do it for the tags than why join, why not just donate your time and do it for yourself without the "reward."  ... No one said we hate Master hunters, we hate the program and what it does.

Sure.  Two options discussed though... any others?

1. Use a raffle.  Affordable at $100?  Maybe higher next year?
2. Draw from hunters meeting requirements for certification.

We understand that all 200 thousand hunters can't go in there we have to put some sort of fair restriction in place.  A raffle changes that restriction from skills/knowlege/stewardship-based to financial-based.  

Let's say a guy out of college might take a night job scrubbing deep fat fryers to pay for his extra raffle tickets.  Then you get another kid living on some investment banking trust fund buys as many tickets as wants without much care at all.  If the rich kid wins, I agree, it is fair.  For me, I prefer to leave money out of the picture.  A guy shouldn't have to be wealthy to gain access to hunt.

Incidentally, this pay more money to hunt concept is actually a significant factor in hunting attrition nationwide.  It is a good idea to move away from fee-based access where we can.

[Little Dave]

Reply to LITTLE DAVE the reason there were only 200 or so people that applied is it was only open to M H.Imagine how many would have tried otherwise,also i hate the fee's seems we pay enough of them.I was trying to think out side the box, to get other hunting oppertunity's for all of us in a area that could be a quality hunt.Look at the new game reg's and you will see extra oppertunity's,they start august 1 way ahead of all the other groups and end in some areas in march 31.Seems to me this is way over presuing the animals and we need a season for county commisioners who allow development in wildlife areas and winter ranges.B Barnes keeping public lands public.

It looks like the biggest app pool last year was Margaret A (WF) with 4257 apps last year and 18 available this year.  With just 7 available this year, using some fuzzy algebra and making a very broad assumption that the regions are equivalent in character, it would translate to 1655 applications for Pumice Plain... at the standard application price... not the $100 raffle price.

Based on what is happening around my town, there are similar extended seasons arranged.  Generally, the option to hunt outside of the regular hunting season is done under the advice of the department wildlife biologists and on a very limited basis.  It is a legal way to create an opportunity to manage problem animals (using hunting methods) outside of the regular season.

[Bob33]

"I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good. "

I don't personally know anyone that fits that description.  I know several individuals that started the MH application and quit because they didn't want to study all the materials.

[KillzElk]

I am so glad to see all the amazing thoughts that have come out of one subject.

I have enjoyed all the post from everyone with the Pro's & Con's on each side.. 

[Kent Hunter]

I think that the state should look at this and give a few more oppertunitys (sp) to the youth and disabled for these "Damage hunts". When you look at the regs there are not any really for chances at nice bulls or bucks. 99% of the draw tags for youth and disabled are just glorified cow and doe tags. I'm not saying take all of the damage hunts from the MH's, just give some of those tags to the youth and disabled.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well very few MH hunts are for bulls. Most are cow hunts.

[KillBilly]

So many of the MH who are arguing still don't get it.  I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good.  I understand the whole argument about how the elk have ravaged a farmers land in Eastern Washington and he has many expenses to repair what they have done, but what does that have to do with MT St Helens elk for instance.  Do we need a program of this sort to "fix the problem."  It will take some serious arguing to convince me that anyone who is a MH became one for any other reason than the benefits of the EXTRA hunting opportunities.  Anyone can donate time and go above and beyond the call of duty to help without getting the extra tags.  If you didn't do it for the tags than why join, why not just donate your time and do it for yourself without the "reward."  But then again, now days even some of the most giving still want something in return, right.  No one said we hate Master hunters, we hate the program and what it does.

If all the of the above claims about your unselfish volunteer work and your claims about giving and never taking are true, then you really don't have a reason to argue for or against MH. Unless of course you are not as unselfish as you claim. Itsounds like all you need to do is take the test and you would be a MH. How, do tell would you taking the test and passing make you any different than you are now? Explain that one... I don't buy your theory, you are the one that still doesn't get it

[Rob]

I invite all of you to set aside your personal beliefs and opinions and role play for a second.  Here is the Scenario (making some of this up so bear with me...)

Through some strange set of unfortunate circumstances you find yourself in charge of the Elk Damage program for some portion of Washington State.  Bad Karma or something, who knows....

Anyway, you have been put in the enviable position of being in between PO'd hunters, and angry land owners.  You are chartered with reducing the amount of money the state spends on Elk damage, while continuing to reduce the amount of elk damage.

What are your options?

I see these options:
1.  Open up more tags for the general public
     A.  Pros:  Cheap.  Makes the hunters happier
     B.  Cons: Difficult to target specific herds/locations.  No way whatsoever to control the quality and skill of the person who will be brining a loaded weapon capable of launching a lethal projectile for 3 miles.  This total unknown will be in contact with a PO'd land owner with whom you are trying to develop a relationship,  who probably does not like hunters anyway given they have to drive trespassers off their land every year.

2.  Continue to pay Damage fees to land owners
     A.  Pros:  Very easy to do
     B.  Cons:  does not accomplish your goal of reducing spend

3.  Hire professional hunters
     A.  Pros:  Easy to do.  Generally a known quantity of the quality of hunter and professionalism.  You can check references.
     B.  Cons:  Very expensive.  PO's the hunters who would rather shoot the animals themselves.

4.  Do nothing
     A.  Pros; easy to do.
     B.   Cons:  does not solve the problems or goals, but a great way to get yourself out of this sucky job.

5.  Leverage a program like the master hunter program
     A.  Pros:  Provides any hunter, who can prove capable, the ability to participate.  Avoids costs of professional hunters.  Sets a reasonable bar with regard to training, competency and ethics such that 90% of landowner conflicts should be greatly reduced.
     B.  Cons:  Nightmare to manage.  Bad people still get into the program and it is difficult/expensive to manage them out of the program in an equitable way.


What would you do?  Don't answer from your passionate points of view.  Put yourself in the role.  Ask yourself honestly what you would do.

This next paragraph is extremely important and is being missed by most folks I think.  Do not confuse damage hunts - most of the MH' special tags are damage hunts or targeted to areas of high damage - with hunting.  This is game management - not hunting.  Hunting just happens to be the tools that can be used to manage the game.

Also, I do not buy the fact that this is an unfair program.  Anyone who can meet the qualifications can apply.  I work 60+ hours a week and was able to get my certification because the program was important to me.  I'm also not the brightest bulb in the pack.  If I can do it, anyone can.

Full disclosure:  I am not in any way affiliated with the game dpt.  I am a newly certified master hunter.  I have not participated any of the benefits of the program as of yet.  I probably will, but it is not my priority right now.

So.  What would you do if you had this job?

[Bob33]

Rob, there's only one flaw with your line of thinking: it's logical.