ONP Goat relocation outcome

[fishngamereaper]

Maybe they should of just left them alone
Would probably be the only thriving goat population in the West.
Really disappointing to see these catastrophic failures...

https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/few-survivors-remain-after-relocation-to-north-cascades/

[Fidelk]

I've had a huge male walk past me about 25 feet away while hiking on the Switchback Trail on Hurricane Ridge. Saw him coming my way from a half mile out. I yielded the trail to him, just sat and watched. A week later another hiker was gored and killed by an aggressive male. Beautiful animal.

[CarbonHunter]

I've had a huge male walk past me about 25 feet away while hiking on the Switchback Trail on Hurricane Ridge. Saw him coming my way from a half mile out. I yielded the trail to him, just sat and watched. A week later another hiker was gored and killed by an aggressive male. Beautiful animal.

Wow… did the hiker do you wrong?

[KNOPHISH]

I’m thinking the overpopulation of cougars are eating all the goats.

[Bareback]

I hate articles like this. They reek of propaganda and fluff.

The article claims “hunters” introduced the goats, wrong. The government introduced the goats in the interest of hunting.

What would an article be if the term “climate change” wasn’t thrown in? Theoretical reasons for decline, “ Recreation, habitat loss, climate change, disease and predation,.” The last two seem most reasonable. When other populations in the state are doing well, it’s does the climate change/habitat loss merit little justice.

The article seems to be full of finger pointing and the blame game.

But then again I’m may be expecting to much, after all Ta’Leah Van Sistine is an environmental/climate journalist in Everrett.

[raydog]

Thankfully we got rid of the goats to save some moss. Classic government

[Fidelk]

I've had a huge male walk past me about 25 feet away while hiking on the Switchback Trail on Hurricane Ridge. Saw him coming my way from a half mile out. I yielded the trail to him, just sat and watched. A week later another hiker was gored and killed by an aggressive male. Beautiful animal.

Wow… did the hiker do you wrong?

C'mon, man.......it whar a goat......or, something whiter than Anderson Cooper.......plus, humans can't live at that altitude.

[Special T]

I’m thinking the overpopulation of cougars are eating all the goats.

Bingo!

[Sundance]

My beef was, and still is that I’ve never seen 100% scientific proof that mountain goats weren’t native to the Olympics. I never supported to relocation and culling, this only makes my dissatisfaction with the decision stronger.

[jstone]

 

[timberhunter]

This doesn’t surprise me. This whole situation was a joke from the start!

[MR5x5]

So lets see, climate change and habitat loss wiped out the native goats over the course of 7 years.  The entities GPS collard 115 goats to see how they did but don't appear to a have clue at what caused the demise.  Somehow the article gets around to grizzly bear reintroduction referencing a very select area of Montana that has zero bearing on anything.  The Tulalip biologists hope grizzlies will scare people out of the high country.

What a ridiculous agenda driven puff piece.  The author is tool.

[Knocker of rocks]

My beef was, and still is that I’ve never seen 100% scientific proof that mountain goats weren’t native to the Olympics. I never supported to relocation and culling, this only makes my dissatisfaction with the decision stronger.

That is evidence of absence, and it’s considered a logical no go. Just like me asking you to prove that there isn’t a block of cheese orbiting Jupiter.

Archeological evidence showed no sign, or exceeding murky at best, evidence of hunted goats in pre history. There is a book that I own, that I unfortunately haven’t read yet, that argues that goats in fact did inhabit the Olympics in pre-history.

The author is a Washington native and a full professor of anthropology at University of Missouri-Columbia. So one should believe it is based on sound evidence, though not accepted by the majority of other researchers

https://anthropology.missouri.edu/people/lyman

[chukardogs]

Anyone know what kind of cheese it is?

[Fidelk]

I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?

[Alchase]

So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?

Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.

[scotsman]

Yeah, something doesn’t smell right about this whole situation. Why didn’t they check into the diminishing number of goats at the first sign of reduced numbers instead of waiting until there are only three left?

[MADMAX]

It’s that darn climate change again

What a bunch of maroons



https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/what-caused-die-off-of-hundreds-mountain-goats-north-cascades/281-99b720fd-3d66-4fe3-9a1d-38df9a80c882

[Knocker of rocks]

So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?

The vaxx or Hillary?

[Loup Loup]

Sounds like they should send some of those recreationolists up from the truck to go pick up collars for them.
The most telling statement for me was when the tribe bio stated that we’ll see if when there are less recreationalist in the area, due to Grizzly’s in the area, will help the situation. Sounds like the feds aren’t the only ones that want to keep the public (other than tribal members)out of the country.

[Born2late]

So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?

Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.

I talked to a tribel guy that had told me about all the goats dieing and he was pissed that nobody ever would hike in right when they knew they were dead to see why they had died.
The management decisions through this whole thing sucks,
I got one on a trail camera in darrington after they relocated it and it was heading down the mountain and looked really skinny.

[Knocker of rocks]

I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?

Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?

Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek

In Alaska, I've seen them right down at sea level.

[SWHUNTER]

So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?

Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.

I talked to a tribel guy that had told me about all the goats dieing and he was pissed that nobody ever would hike in right when they knew they were dead to see why they had died.
The management decisions through this whole thing sucks,
I got one on a trail camera in darrington after they relocated it and it was heading down the mountain and looked really skinny.

There was one on a trail cam down by Trafton too. Also saw a trail cam pic of one basically on the river bar out the mountain loop.

[Special T]

I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?

Olympic is 7980 and a massive amount of them are above 6k ft. Several of which I have summitted. Lots of mountain goat at the bases of said mountains in the 3500 ft range. They really like your.

[andrew_in_idaho]

I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?

Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek

There is a herd right outside of lagrande Oregon that can be seen regularly right off of I-84, I’ve looked at topo maps and the ridge they live on tops out at 3700 feet, most of the time I’d say the goats are about 3200. I’ve seen them there in every month of the year, last week they were about 100’ off of the grande ronde at about 2950’


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[zwickeyman]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6o1_a_pI3p/

One of the biggest problems right here

[fishngamereaper]

If they just left well enough alone..

What could of been...

They could of aggressively managed the Oly Pen herds, kept them in check and set a strict carry capacity goal.

Deal with problem goats as necessary...
It would of easily added 15-20 goat tags a year to an already dwindling OIL opportunity..

Every time I look out my windows and see the Olympic's front and center I just shake my head at lost opportunities...

[Sundance]

If they just left well enough alone..

What could of been...

They could of aggressively managed the Oly Pen herds, kept them in check and set a strict carry capacity goal.

Deal with problem goats as necessary...
It would of easily added 15-20 goat tags a year to an already dwindling OIL opportunity..

Every time I look out my windows and see the Olympic's front and center I just shake my head at lost opportunities...

In 2021 WDFW had the conflict goat resolution hunt category with a total of 25 permits available. The success rate was 33%, so about 8 goats were being harvested. With the population at that time along with the TFR rate, harvesting 8 goats wasn’t even scratching the population. Why they didn’t have 100+ permits is beyond me. Very frustrating.

[birddogdad]

our wildlife dollars well invested by the state professional team for the better of all

[Special T]

So in the WDFWs defence spreading goats out ISa good idea, it would be beneficial long term to sportsmen. Overlooking the high populations of cougars, and piss poor follow through to determine deaths is on them.

[Practical Approach]

So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?

Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.

I believe some of the deaths were investigated, when they were in areas where they could be recovered.  However, I believe many might have died during winter months and were not accessable due to weather and terrain until it was too late to understand the cause of death. 

[GOcougsHunter]

really unfortunate.  I got to help with some of the relocations during both years.  Lots of money, energy and time spent in these relocations.  Lots of hope and fingers crossed and obviously had the outcome they did not want.  My belief is that this relocation project was just a function of the most politically correct way to solve the issue.  The public comments were absolutely bonkers and I think the NPS, WDFW, Tribes, USDA, everyone knew what they were up against regardless of the cost.   My hope is that at least a few of them bred to strengthen the gene pool?

I will be watching the Grizzly bear relocation with popcorn in hand...

[Sundance]

My beef was, and still is that I’ve never seen 100% scientific proof that mountain goats weren’t native to the Olympics. I never supported to relocation and culling, this only makes my dissatisfaction with the decision stronger.

That is evidence of absence, and it’s considered a logical no go. Just like me asking you to prove that there isn’t a block of cheese orbiting Jupiter.

Archeological evidence showed no sign, or exceeding murky at best, evidence of hunted goats in pre history. There is a book that I own, that I unfortunately haven’t read yet, that argues that goats in fact did inhabit the Olympics in pre-history.

The author is a Washington native and a full professor of anthropology at University of Missouri-Columbia. So one should believe it is based on sound evidence, though not accepted by the majority of other researchers

https://anthropology.missouri.edu/people/lyman

You’re 100% spot on, the lack of hard evidence to support their existence prior to 1900’s is what the NP’s stood on. I’ve seen goats all over the OP and in really odd places/elevations. The lack of salt and minerals in on the OP has always given me pause, but that alone doesn’t explain why goats couldn’t have existed on that landscape. I watch a friend shoot a Billy off the salt water in AK, so perhaps they would go down to sea level (on the OP) if needed. There were even stories from tribal elders that seemed to support long term goat presence, but stories aren’t  the facts needed. Thank you for sharing that book title, I ordered it and look forward to the read.

[argali]

Why didn’t they transplant some to mount linton in pend oreile county and bolster that herd or start anew one? The Wdfw seem like bumbling fools to me!

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I don't know if anyone has suggested it, but besides all the other reasons this relocation seems to have been a failure, It might be possible that whatever sedative the animals were given somehow affected them.  It's strange that this population was successfully relocated into the Olympics, but when they were relocated out of the Olympics it was basically a total failure.  What factors were different in the two relocations?

[Skyvalhunter]

Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.

[Sundance]

Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.

Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.

[520backyard]

About 6 years ago or so I talked to one of the WDFW biologist involved in this and voiced my concerns that this plan was being implemented and the fact they were going to shoot as many of the goats in the park that they couldn't capture as they could find. I expressed the fact that hunters should be able to reduce those goat numbers in the national park without the wanton waste of the game resource as was being planned. The response was it would be "problematic" and yes I brought up the fact there is hunting in other national parks(Grand Teton, Denali, Glacier Bay. ect),it was a possibility. The biologist was quite sure this was the best plan for the goats and best plan for the state of Washington and the best plan for the feds.

So here we are 6 years later and that plan it seems has gone completely to *censored*. Not good for the goats, not good for the state and not good for the hunters of Washington. Olympic NP made out OK though.

And the thing that keeps running through my mind was when they wanted to do this cull plan originally in the 90's and it caused a public uproar and it was cancelled as a result.
And in 2016-17 there was hardly a peep from the public when they brought the plan back, of course this time they were a bit more sneaky about the PR and public comment and meetings relating to this cull. My how times change.

So next it's Grizzlies huh. What could possibly go wrong it's got all the same players.

[Tbar]

Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.

Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.

Was that an option? The park ran the show,  did NEPA and made the decisions. 

[520backyard]

It would be interesting to see the data on those goats being tracked and exactly how long after being relocated they died. I would think a goat that made it past a few weeks or a month or so would be out of danger from the stress of capture and relocation.
Depredation seems a more likely cause than they succumbed to climate change, although a hard winter does tend to cull the population down. Disease perhaps but then again they should have been able to find out if that was the case.

[Remnar]

Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.

Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.

Was that an option? The park ran the show,  did NEPA and made the decisions.

 
Those goats were going to be dead if they werent relocated . So they gave it a shot and it didnt pan out as hoped. A few added goats to the cascades better than no more goats added ...

Also as far as cost I would rather see $ spent on this than MANY others things it gets spent on .

[Tbar]

Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.

Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.

Was that an option? The park ran the show,  did NEPA and made the decisions.

 
Those goats were going to be dead if they werent relocated . So they gave it a shot and it didnt pan out as hoped. A few added goats to the cascades better than no more goats added ...

Also as far as cost I would rather see $ spent on this than MANY others things it gets spent on .

Thanks for the common sense post @Remnar . This was a monumental lift by so many. It's frustrating to see all of the negativity around an attempt to make things better in the world of wildlife.  Everyone from volunteer groups to wdfw to many tribes put forth time and resources.  Expectations were not of grandeur but of hope.  Hope has been dashed but it doesn't not take from the incredible effort and careful planning to have this go off so well, to give some a chance that didn’t exist. To all the armchair biologists and should haves on here I hope at some point you are able to witness the selflessness and work that went into this through being involved if given the opportunity. 

[fishngamereaper]

The reality is they could of left the goats alone.

The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.

In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.

[Tbar]

The reality is they could of left the goats alone.

The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.

In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.

NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.

[fishngamereaper]

The reality is they could of left the goats alone.

The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.

In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.

NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.

Yes and yes
Unfortunately what's done is done
But I will stand firm that I disagree with the EIS and the associated CBI review that goats allegedly where not native to the area. 
And that removal was the only option....
A major factor of the management plan was human interaction. Maybe they should of taken a step in managing humans first....that park is overdue for a reduction in tourism..
I grew up in those mountains and the flood of people the last few years is mind blowing.

And just to be clear even if the relocation was a complete success I would still have the same opinion..those mountains deserve goats....

[Tbar]

The reality is they could of left the goats alone.

The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.

In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.

NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.

Yes and yes
Unfortunately what's done is done
But I will stand firm that I disagree with the EIS and the associated CBI review that goats allegedly where not native to the area. 
And that removal was the only option....
A major factor of the management plan was human interaction. Maybe they should of taken a step in managing humans first....that park is overdue for a reduction in tourism..
I grew up in those mountains and the flood of people the last few years is mind blowing.

And just to be clear even if the relocation was a complete success I would still have the same opinion..those mountains deserve goats....

No disagreement.  It is just tough to convey the effort by so many to try to salvage a NPS decision.  This was not on the WDFW or tribes.