FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WA GOAT HUNTERS - STOP SHOOTING NANNIES!!!

[fishngamereaper]

Definitely don't shoot the first one unless it's over 10"..

But I don't like Hunter's telling other Hunter's what they should or shouldn't do with a legal tag.
If a guy or gal has been hunting hard with a tag that took two decades to draw, and time is running out, the situation is perfect, recovery is easy etc..and they decide on a nanny so be it.
Why should we as Hunter's peer pressure the one tag holder in a unit to fall on the sword in the name of conservation and eat a dream tag ..
Worse yet why should we tell people to not apply if they can't be 100 percent on ID. Does the State require that? We making rules beyond what the state requires.
If the State wants to go that route fine...if they deem it's necessary I'm all in. But until then.

I'm not the utmost authority on goats but I've spent enough time in goat country over 30 plus years I've learned a few things..
People pressure is a tough one...goats actually kinda like people..from the ONP, to the enchantments, to Glacier NP I've seen goats thrive in popular tourist spots.
Killing nannies...one nanny from a herd every few years isn't decreasing the herd population substantially enough to make a impact. IMO...and justify a closure.
My evidence.....I watch herds throughout the State..some haven't been hunted by DFW issued tag holders for 6-8 years...some 10-15....some never...
For some reason those herds aren't blowing up.. could they handle having a tag issued for them.. absolutely..but they aren't growing exponentially.( One of my biggest frustrations is available huntable herds but the State refuses to issue tags... :'(...)
Predators... definitely an issue. I've seen more cat sign and bears in goat country the last few years than normal... expanding zones is common with overpopulation..

I think regardless of what Hunter's do in the name of conservation we will always end up drawing the short straw..it's easier for the State to manage Hunter's than manage the quarry we chase.
And whatever steps we take or rules we place upon ourselves, we will always look like the problem in the eye of the public and the COMMISSION...

[bearpaw]

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/almost-all-mountain-goats-died-after-airlift-from-olympics-to-cascades/

This article says a lot, if you haven't read it, you should.

I can certainly understand that if hunters are impacting a small population of animals, it could make a big difference in herd numbers over time, and for that reason I can't disagree with this topic, it's undeniably correct! However, I don't blame hunters who shot a handful of nannies for impacting goat numbers as much as goat numbers have dropped, that's not rational given the huge loss in overall goat numbers. But I think the OP is correct, I would expect certain seasons in areas with greatly reduced goat numbers to be curtailed until goat numbers increase, that is the way management should work! If a particular herd's existence is in danger responsible managers should try to identify and remove as many limiting factors as possible.

It appears after reading this article that the tribes are making an attempt to identify the problem. What is WDFW doing? WDFW has more resources than any tribe, yet certain tribes have determined the magnitude of the goat die off in both transplanted goats and in non-transplanted goats.

DARRINGTON — About five years ago, wildlife biologists with the Tulalip Tribes used GPS collars to start tracking 115 mountain goats translocated from the Olympic Peninsula to the North Cascades.

Only three are still alive today.

Wildlife biologists with the Stillaguamish Tribe found similar results. Out of 36 translocated goats they tracked, only one is still alive. Usually, mountain goats live between 10 to 13 years in the wild.

That's less than a 3% survival rate!

Researchers believe hunters initially introduced a handful of mountain goats to the Olympic mountains in the 1920s, before Olympic National Park was established.

The population on the peninsula skyrocketed about a century later to almost 700 goats.

That's a huge increase in goats! I am immediately asking myself what is so different from the North Cascades to the Olympics.

Over 10,000 goats lived in Washington as recently as 1961, according to the state Department of Fish and Wildlife. Now, an estimated 2,400 to 3,200 remain.

That's roughly a 75% reduction in total WA goat numbers! If goats are expanding in some areas then the die off is even worse in other areas!

The population near Mount St. Helens has soared over the past decade. In 2014, biologists counted 65 goats and now estimate some 400 goats live there.

That's over a 600% increase in goat numbers! What is different at St Helens than in the North Cascades?

I hope someone is focused on figuring out the differences? I'm willing to bet the answer to the overall problem can be determined by identifying the differences. If there is a chance to transplant goats again, I would consider transplanting some of them to an area where goats are doing well to see if those transplanted goats die off, I'm betting they don't die at the same rate as those transplanted to the North Cascades. Another step I would suggest is to collar some goats and try to visit every mortality site and try to determine the cause of death! Biologists know all of that, but is it happening? If that isn't happening why not?

Is WDFW going to allow goats the same fate as caribou in this state?

[Bob33]

Over 10,000 goats lived in Washington as recently as 1961, according to the state Department of Fish and Wildlife. Now, an estimated 2,400 to 3,200 remain.

[huntnnw]

Another reason to front tag fees or pick 1 oil tag to apply for to eliminate the people who really don’t care. A huge amount of the apps are “ well I’ll just throw my name in the hat “

[Practical Approach]

I guess I view OIL hunts as a dream hunts and not a dream kill.  I just finished the Baker Avalanche Gorge hunt and was lucky enough to harvest a Billy.  I can't say enough about how stressed I was making sure it was a Billy.  I took the non mandatory test and watched all the video information that WDFW sent on how to identify a Billy.  I spoke with some of you who had hunted goats and the area I was hunting and you all gave me good advice.  The main thing I took to heart is be patient, be as certain as you can.  Many of you said watch it pee to make sure.  While the wait can be long for the opportunity, I went into the hunt prepared to eat my tag versus shooting a nanny on purpose.  I enjoyed the hunt preparation, meeting new hunters and spending time in a place I never get to hunt with my hunting friends.  For me, that is what the hunt is all about.  I know every hunter is different and that it isn't illegal to shoot a nanny.  I think most of us can agree that now that these hunts are highly regulated, hunters are not the limiting factor on the populations viability.  As hunters, we understand that killing males, as with most of our hunted species,  does not have the impact on productivity as killing females.  It makes it harder for our wildlife managers to make a case the anti hunting WDFW commissioners, to keep a population open, when the population is barely meeting the minimum population threshold, if nannies continue to be harvested.  I do think that due to the number of nannies killed last year and this year to date, that 2024 is the last year for goat hunting on Baker.  We will see.

[storyteller]

So, I just opened my email, I got an email from Washington Recreation and Conservation  office, they have more grant managers and specialists than I would have imagined, maybe someone should ask them to look at adding Mountain  Goats to their  list, they have Orcas , Salmon and trees, you name it, sounds goofy but  the state wants to spend money, maybe they would take this up.

[Mtnwalker]

Another reason to front tag fees or pick 1 oil tag to apply for to eliminate the people who really don’t care. A huge amount of the apps are “ well I’ll just throw my name in the hat “

Maybe they should increase the tag cost to $1332 for residents with $1000 of that being a refundable "nanny deposit" 

Seriously though, I think pretty much everybody is in agreement that we should not shoot nannies. But I also get tired of hunters being so self depricating and willing to fall on the sword to take blame for the department's shortcomings. Our slice of this pie is already so miniscule, if it is really having these long-term effects then why aren't they putting more safeguards in place than a little online ID course? We're talking about sub 20 tag holders total. In person training, bigger incentives to not harvest nannies, are all very doable on this scale.

[Hectocotylus]

Should lose deer tag for a few years if someone shoots a nanny. Nobody cares because it’s their only goat tag they will get and it’s easy to shoot a nanny close to the trail.


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[time2hunt]

I guess I view OIL hunts as a dream hunts and not a dream kill.  I just finished the Baker Avalanche Gorge hunt and was lucky enough to harvest a Billy.  I can't say enough about how stressed I was making sure it was a Billy.  I took the non mandatory test and watched all the video information that WDFW sent on how to identify a Billy.  I spoke with some of you who had hunted goats and the area I was hunting and you all gave me good advice.  The main thing I took to heart is be patient, be as certain as you can.  Many of you said watch it pee to make sure.  While the wait can be long for the opportunity, I went into the hunt prepared to eat my tag versus shooting a nanny on purpose.  I enjoyed the hunt preparation, meeting new hunters and spending time in a place I never get to hunt with my hunting friends.  For me, that is what the hunt is all about.  I know every hunter is different and that it isn't illegal to shoot a nanny.  I think most of us can agree that now that these hunts are highly regulated, hunters are not the limiting factor on the populations viability.  As hunters, we understand that killing males, as with most of our hunted species,  does not have the impact on productivity as killing females.  It makes it harder for our wildlife managers to make a case the anti hunting WDFW commissioners, to keep a population open, when the population is barely meeting the minimum population threshold, if nannies continue to be harvested.  I do think that due to the number of nannies killed last year and this year to date, that 2024 is the last year for goat hunting on Baker.  We will see.

Did the state give you a kill kit for blood samples? I received a big packet from Idaho wanting blood and some other info.


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[Huckleberry]

My view: the hunter did not break the law. It is their tag to use and if the herd cannot take the hit then why is it open on the first place? I have ran into tribal hunters on numerous occasions. They probably are not hunting the popular trails as alternative options do exist.

If given the opportunity to do this hunt I would certainly target a nice billy but for the most part all goats look pretty similar. Size and sex are not quite the same as say a sheep hunt.

The situation looks bad. Goat populations as a whole and tags allocated continue to drop annually. I doubt I will ever get to hunt one due to poor management. I was adamantly against the Olympic cull (but put in for removal tags). That herd should have been viewed as a savings account and left alone. It's too late and the state is now out more animals than hunters have taken in the last 10 years.

[greenhead_killer]

I have a feeling that cats are playing a bigger role in the decline than wdfw is willing to admit. I can see hiker pressure adding to it, but like mentioned earlier, states like Colorado are swarmed with hikers and populations are still holding steady. Be nice to get an actual answer from the state. Never going to happen but we always swing for the fences

[jackelope]

The mountainside I killed my goat on was covered up in cat tracks.  I can't see bears and wolves being able to navigate that country with the agility a cat has.

It's legal to shoot nannies. As I recall it from the pamphlet I got from the WDFW, it's legal because it would be extremely difficult to enforce. Lots of accidental nanny killings that don't justify legal action because it's too difficult to tell the difference for most people. The WDFW promotes not killing nannies. They send you lots of literature about how to tell the difference and they clearly really want you to try to only shoot billies. Shooting 1 nanny goat in a population that is limited to begin with has a much more significant impact on the overall herd health than lets say a doe deer. It's totally legal.  I won't flip a guy crap out loud for shooting a nanny, but I will in my head and I will keep it to myself. 

[Hectocotylus]

Everyone can blame predators but environmental conditions impact way more than X percent more cats. And guess what. We can’t change the number of cats really.  But we sure can change how many Nannie’s get killed. As hunters let’s take responsibility instead of whining about the department or something. We have a role. Let’s do it the best we can.


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[time2hunt]

She would look good next to my Billy . Joking aside it’s are job as hunter to be able to distinguish a billy from a nannie. Physical conditioning is a big part it. I think most people that put in don’t realize that it’s a physical demanding hunt and panic sets in on having a OIL and not shooting a goat.


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[bearpaw]

Everyone can blame predators but environmental conditions impact way more than X percent more cats. And guess what. We can’t change the number of cats really.  But we sure can change how many Nannie’s get killed. As hunters let’s take responsibility instead of whining about the department or something. We have a role. Let’s do it the best we can.


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I don't disagree with being selective, and doing what we can as hunters, but your missing the math. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of cats hunting every goat they can catch and they are not limited to one goat per lifetime. Compare that to a handful of hunters shooting a nanny, its pretty easy to see which factors are more likely causing the entire WA goat population to drop by 75%, from 10,000 to about 2500.