An 'ex-WA elk hunter' speaks

[huntnphool]

request that they simplify the regulations and schedule the seasons in such a manner that maximizes hunter success while ensuring that healthy elk populations are maintained

Isn't that what they say they are doing now?

Same thing for general deer (east side), the dates are rediculous. Eliminate all the November permit hunts and let the general hunt go through Oct.

[Elkaholic daWg]

2013 Elk Hunt

After a week of hunting elk in “prime” Washington elk habitat, no elk were harvested by any of the several experienced hunters in elk camp during the modern firearm general elk season.  A legal elk in the GMUs would have been a spike or antlerless with the proper permit.  The descriptions of the good old days sounds like the way it should be.  However, the current situation is far different.  What happened?  The story seems to be the same from many hunters.

Here are some of the very consistent comments:

•   The season is too early; this is the primary complaint from many hunters.  When the modern firearm general elk season was during the first half of November, the winter storms had started to push elk herds to lower elevations where hunters had reasonable access to the migrating elk.  The earlier, much warmer season only gives hunters the possibility of harvesting from a much smaller population of year-round resident elk.
 
•   Road closures and decommissioning (destruction) of roads has limited and/or impaired hunter access into hunting areas.

•   Camping areas have been closed which limit where hunters can camp and park their vehicles.

•   Restrictive regulations have made hunting elk more difficult to succeed.  Specifically: True spike and spike can be difficult to identify as legal at typical modern rifle distances (100 +/- yards).  The chances of success were equated to the lottery.

•   There are too many categories of hunts based on antler growth and gender: Any bull, any elk, spike bull, true spike bull, 3 point minimum, antlerless. 

•   The modern firearm general elk season is preceded by archery elk, muzzleloader elk, special permit elk, and deer hunts.  The remaining resident elk are very spooked by the time the general modern firearm season comes around.

•   It can take many years to get drawn for a special/quality hunt; this is discouraging.

•   The WDFW does not seem to be working to accommodate hunters.  The changes in regulations and season schedules appear to be geared toward maximizing revenue versus providing reasonable opportunities for hunter success that result in maintaining healthy elk populations.

Hunting elk in Washington seems to be more complicated and difficult than it is in other states with significant elk populations.  Many hunters that are Washington residents have become ex-Washington elk hunters because of the reasons stated at the beginning of this thread and the list given in this post.  It might help to communicate the many complaints and concerns to the WDFW and request that they simplify the regulations and schedule the seasons in such a manner that maximizes hunter success while ensuring that healthy elk populations are maintained.

And some would prefer to give away MORE......

Okay, this spike issue- as I said, I never thought of it as being an issue. I like the 'any bull' option for someone who waited years to draw a bull permit. Most guys aren't going to take a spike anyway. But it's a good option to have if it comes down to your last day to hunt. They could take a spike anyway during the general season. Again, this is really a non-issue. I've never seen it mentioned on this site until now.

As for the "red dot" roads- there's no such thing. It's the Green Dot system, meaning only roads with green dots are open for motorized vehicles. This restriction, in certain areas, along with the spike only general season, is needed to keep success rates low, while allowing the state to sell an unlimited number of elk tags.

If we want a better, higher quality elk hunting experience, with good road access into hunting areas on public lands, we need to go to elk hunting by permit only and do away with the general spike seasons altogether.


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Our DFW created the native trophy hunts with their (temporary?) "spike only"and the true spike was sold  as temporary also

[bobcat]

Okay, again, for those who feel the elk hunting season should be at a "better" time, and with less or no restrictions on antler points and/or sex- does this state have an over abundance of elk?

In other words, is our elk population in excess of what the habitat can support?

If so, then yes, I agree, liberalize the elk season and open more roads so more elk can be harvested and let's work on decreasing the number of elk in this state.     

[huntnphool]

liberalize the elk season

Hunting in Washington couldn't be any more "liberalized" if WDFW wanted it to be.

[Elkaholic daWg]

When this whole agenda was hatched (1981 or 82) there were 4 different elk tags you had to choose from ,3 different weapon choices,  AND an "early" or  "late" tag....to which one could ONLY apply for permits by sacrificing the first 2 to 3 days of general  (Any bull)season......... then they saw the cash cow, and here we are.  Not saying we've got too many.....just that those who run the show CREATED the problem!

[bobcat]

Not saying we've got too many.....just that those who run the show CREATED the problem!

Which problem?


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[Elkaholic daWg]

MONEY over animals and the great Native harvests............  forgot the wolf issue train wreck coming

[muzbuster]

As for the "red dot" roads- there's no such thing. It's the Green Dot system, meaning only roads with green dots are open for motorized vehicles. This restriction, in certain areas, along with the spike only general season, is needed to keep success rates low, while allowing the state to sell an unlimited number of elk tags.

You nailed it bobcat! Its all about managing how to get more money, period, has absolutely nothing to do with managing the game populations or enhancing recreational opportunities.

[huntnphool]

Its all about managing how to get more money, has absolutely nothing to do with managing the game populations or enhancing recreational opportunities.

Bingo!

[Sitka_Blacktail]

The WDFW does not seem to be working to accommodate hunters.  The changes in regulations and season schedules appear to be geared toward maximizing revenue versus providing reasonable opportunities for hunter success that result in maintaining healthy elk populations.

It might help to communicate the many complaints and concerns to the WDFW and request that they simplify the regulations and schedule the seasons in such a manner that maximizes hunter success while ensuring that healthy elk populations are maintained.

First off, It's not game managers' jobs to maximize hunter success. It's their job to do what's best for the herds as a whole. In the long run, THAT is what maximizes success. Maintain a sustainable herd and maintain a sustainable harvest level. That is what all the rules and regulations and policies that hunters like to complain about attempt to do. There are so many variables that it's a thankless job. On one hand you have to maintain a herd size and male/female ratio that will sustain the herd, on the other side, you have hunters clamoring that they deserve to kill more animals. But what if killing more animals isn't sustainable? What if that causes a declining herd? Then you get to listen to hunters complain some more. But all the complaints from hunters aren't the same. Some want more animals (even if habitat won't support it). Some want longer seasons (even though that may lead to a harvest level that isn't sustainable). Some want more trophy animals (which means not harvesting as many animals to allow more to get to trophy size). So right there you have a divide, hunters who want a higher success rate vs hunters who want bigger animals. You can't manage for more trophies and hope to maintain a high success rate, because to do so, you have to stockpile animals and at some point you come up against the fact that habitat can only sustain so many animals. Then a bad winter comes along and knocks everything down and again hunters are screaming that managers aren't doing their job.

Next add in all the other factors................. A growing statewide population, ballot box game management, more land going to agriculture (this can be good as it can provide good habitat, but it can also  bring calls to reduce herds that are causing crop damages and also limit areas where hunters are welcome), more private land made off limits to hunters, more tribal hunting, too many hunters in the woods at one time, and on and on.

So seasons are set to try to please everyone. Never a good idea..... To alleviate crowded conditions, hunters were told they had to pick one method of hunting, modern, archery, or muzzle loader. Instead of everyone being in the woods at one time, they each get their own season. Hunters Modern weapons have the largest and most efficient group of hunters, so their seasons are shorter, but they get to hunt the whole state. Archery and muzzle loaders are less efficient, so they get longer seasons, but in way fewer units than modern. So hunters who want longer seasons and more time in the woods can opt for one of the primitive seasons. But wait, many primitive hunters don't like the restrictions such as no scopes on muzzle loaders. They want to be more efficient. But it is the inefficiency that allows the seasons to be longer. Make them more efficient and not only will more animals be taken, but more hunters will be interested in that method so seasons or areas will have to be reduced.

Elk season they make you pick which side of the state you hunt on. That way they can have seasons at different times and all the hunters in the state don't go hunt the early east side hunt, then all go hunt the later west side hunt. Less people in the woods when we're hunting, can't we all agree this is a good thing?  Mature bull cow ratios out of whack? Control bull harvest with spike only seasons and drawings for mature bulls. This provides hunting opportunity for many while allowing a shot at a trophy bull if that's your thing. Want more branched bulls? Three point or better units and let the spikes live an extra year. The alternative is going to an all draw hunt for bulls and not everybody gets to hunt every year. Think of the implications if that happens.

No, game managers can't maximize your success for you and they can't make everybody happy. If that's what you want, pay the big bucks and go hunt on a game farm where everything is controlled. Myself, I'm just happy to have the opportunity to get out in the woods and hunt. I either make my own success or I don't.

And PS, so what if being successful out hunting is harder? It just makes it that much more satisfying when you succeed in tagging out.

[idahohuntr]

As others point out, I think it is important to recognize wildlife management decisions are a series of trade-offs involving many complex factors.  There are rarely simple answers.  That does not mean that hunter input and alternatives to current management strategies should not be thoroughly evaluated...just that it is never as simple as extending a season or moving them to a better time of year.  Frankly, I think WDFW does try to provide the best opportunity for SUSTAINABLE harvest...which often means substantial restrictions when you have a limited resource like elk.  I think if WDFW could sell each of us 2 elk tags instead of one they would love to    

[Buzz2401]

Well said sitka

[huntrights]

ALL of the elk hunters (20+) in a couple of the eastern Washington hunt areas that shared their sincere thoughts with me regarding the modern firearm general elk season indicated discontent with the current elk hunting situation.  This does not include those that have already decided to NOT to hunt in Washington anymore because of the current situation.  When 100% of a sample of hunters indicates significant issues with the current regulations, seasons, road and campsite closures/decommissioning (destruction), and a perception of wildlife management to maximize revenue, one might conclude there are very real issues that need to be addressed. 

Other states such as Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming seem to maintain healthy elk herds (excluding wolf issues) while also creating reasonable chances of success to elk hunters.  Why are many Washington elk hunters going to other states to hunt elk?  Ex-Washington elk hunters give reasons for not hunting elk in this state because of the reasons stated at the beginning of this thread and the list of complaints shared by 20+ hunters this season.  If hunters continue to spend multiple weeks of their time/vacations and their hard earned money to hunt elk in Washington while only having a very small chance of success, those hunters may stop hunting here and choose to hunt elsewhere.  Hunters don’t go hunting so they can go on an expensive camping trip; they always have the desire to successfully harvest their game animals.

Another important fact we should all keep in mind is that hunting of all game species is a legitimate form of sustenance (food) for those that successfully harvest their game.  Although a big rack may give the successful hunter some bragging rights in elk or deer camp, the bottom line is what is edible and puts food on the table for their family and friends.  Hunting only started to be looked upon as a sport because we have industrialized farming and ranching, and grocery stores within convenient distances from our homes.  The hunting community would be well served to change their cumulative mind-set back to viewing hunting as a form of sustenance.  The sporting part of hunting is that we also enjoy the many positive social interactions and bonding experiences with family, friends, and other hunters.  We also enjoy the connections with our natural surroundings that hunting provides.

Obviously there are no simple answers to the stated issues.  However, it does appear that the pendulum of regulations, hunting conditions, and access to land (road and camp area closures) that affects hunters has swung too far in a direction that has caused hunters to become very discontent and suspicious of the related regulations, policies, and procedures.  Many hunters appear to have become somewhat distrusting of the WDFW motives whether those perceptions are based in fact or not.

There are most likely some WDFW personnel that take part in, or monitor some of the posts in this forum.  Although we should all take part in WDFW public comment and meeting opportunities to express these concerns, WDFW personnel that read these posts should consider informing the WDFW Commission and the WDFW leadership of what hunters in the field are experiencing and saying. 

Dave Workman - Thank you for starting this thread.  It is helping to shine a spotlight on many issues that need to be addressed by the WDFW and hunters that are willing to get engaged in the process.

[bobcat]

Other states such as Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming seem to maintain healthy elk herds (excluding wolf issues) while also creating reasonable chances of success to elk hunters.  Why are many Washington elk hunters going to other states to hunt elk?

No need for me to read further than that. You're way off base if you're trying to compare Washington with Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.

Those states have a much lower human population, way more public land, and a whole lot more wildlife habitat that supports wildlife.

Those states don't need to have all the restrictions we have, due to all of the differences I listed above. Pretty basic knowledge- I really shouldn't have to explain it, SHOULD I??    


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[pianoman9701]