northeast antler restrictions

[bobcat]

There may also be more escapement becasue hunters will have to id their target and the deer might have a chance to run. 

Now that part I can believe. That makes sense. And yes, I could see that there might be more little 3 points, but are those really "mature" deer? A 3 point buck could very likely be just a 2 1/2 year old deer.

In my opinion if you really want more quality mature bucks in the herd you would have to get rid of the general season and make it by permit only.

[WAcoyotehunter]

There may also be more escapement becasue hunters will have to id their target and the deer might have a chance to run. 

Now that part I can believe. That makes sense. And yes, I could see that there might be more little 3 points, but are those really "mature" deer? A 3 point buck could very likely be just a 2 1/2 year old deer.

you're right on there.  Lot's of 2 1/2 yr old deer have three points and quite a few will get taken.  But, quite a few will live too...and hopefully mature, which is better than we have now. 

[Colville]

Before a person suggests a "solution" that takes opportunity from other hunters THEY are the ones burdened to show that: A. there's a problem (define and quantify it) not in generalities but in this specific herd. B. Define what a proper outcome looks like and why. C. That the problem is significant enough to require the changes and D. That there aren't other changes that meet the same goals with by less drastic means.

No one has put up anything that suggests the breeding rate is a problem. No facts that the number of mature whites are inadequate. No facts that herd numbers are declining or in danger relative to our harvest, buck doe ratios etc as opposed to weather. None.

Pretty hard to tell everyone that you have a solution to a problem you haven't proven exists, that it'll take away their traditional hunts and that it's in their best interest all on "I say so". I don't deny that more mature bucks would be available under the suggestions. I deny that there's any underlying problem. There's just a desire for a certain buck demographic and it's arbitrary. If you think it's not arbitrary I'm open minded, lets have the evidence.

[7mmfan]

I agree that trying to find that 3rd point sucks esspecially when the deer has you made and you only have a split second to decide, but I definately think it helps the quality of the hunt. I don't know about you guys but I enjoy just seeing animals, esspecially bucks, when I'm out hunting. I've been hunting the Winthrop area with my dad since I was 6 and remember way back when seeing plenty of does but I'll be damned if we'd see a buck and when you did it was usually a spike or forked horn. Since the 3-pt or better rule has been established i've seen more deer, including bucks and BIG bucks over there. We went 3 for 3 opening weekend this year, no wall hangers but nice 3 and 4pt mulies. Plus we saw plenty of deer which is what its about, getting out there and seeing those critters.

[hambone]

if you want to see if a 3 point or better works where i hunt in the mica unit i seen 12 to 14 bucks in general season every one of the was legal i did not see any small bucks. over the last 3 years seen a lot of young bucks the 3 point or better works you might not see the good in it for 3 or 4 years but it is worth the wait

[SHANE(WA)]

+1 hambone, night and day from north of the river and south of the river

[DOUBLELUNG]

I'm in favor of the three point restriction.  more mature deer in the herd makes a healthier herd.

How would a 3 point restriction provide more mature deer? Seems to me it would do the opposite. With the restriction, all the guys who would have shot little spikes and 2 points will end up shooting a bigger buck (or nothing at all.) So won't the harvest of mature bucks increase, and therefore decrease the number of mature bucks in the herd? Just asking as I'm confused as to how putting more pressure on the mature bucks will increase their numbers.

Two possible outcomes with minimum antler point restrictions and no other changes: 1) legal buck harvest increases, total buck harvest decreases, and post-season total buck survival increases.  Harvest moves toward primarily 2-year old bucks, with few legal bucks surviving to prime ages (it's called age structure truncation); or 2) buck harvest vulnerability is low enough that there is good survival of legal bucks, and total buck harvest declines.

The only way minimum antler point restrictions make sense is when total buck survival is low.  Scenario one above is typical of what 3-point has done for mule deer in the Okanogan and Columbia Basin.  Scenario two is typical of what occurred in Chelan Co. with 3-point, where the early, shorter MF season allows for good buck escapement regardless of antler point restriction. 

The only way to increase escapement of mature bucks, is to reduce total buck harvest.  That can be done with or without antler point restrictions, if hunter numbers are limited (i.e., Desert unit), and is functionally what we do with late hunt opportunities instead of running general seasons late - reduce hunter numbers when bucks are vulnerable.  Based on the info Croix posted, with no other changes I predict the only outcome of a minimum antler point restriction for NE whitetails would be an increase in harvest of legal bucks their first year (2-year olds); a decrease in total buck harvest; and a decrease in harvest numbers of 4+ aged bucks. 

I'm not familiar enough with the condition of the forage base up there to comment - but - if whitetails are nutritionally stessed and competing for winter forage, reducing overall deer densities (increased antlerless harvest) would result in larger antlers on same-aged bucks.  Bucks can only reach their genetic potential for antler growth if they are not nutritionally limited.

I think the NE whitetail season SCREAMS, if it aint broke - don't fix it.

[high country]

I hunt both sides of the river. my biggest bucks are from the north side. we are deer rich on both sides of the river. I can't see why to change it, its working just fine. besides, if we limit the number we as hunters harves, the wolves are gonna get em'.

[TeacherMan]

I haven't read all the other posts so I may be going against what the majority wants, but I'm not for it. I do just fine with out it and see plenty of mature deer. Yes I usually pass up 20 or so smaller bucks before I harvest my animal, but I get one. Don't stop all the other people from wanting to come hunt over hear. I live in this corner of the state and I know what the deer season means to local businesses. I think by putting an antler restriction on the heard we would be hurting them as well. Who wants to come over for 2 days from Seattle area when they have to shoot a 4pt? Some of these guys have never shot anything but spikes and forkys. They are fine with that and so am I. 

[pendoreilleadventures]

I have lived her all my life I live in pend oreille county.There is no need for antler restrictions I use to think the same think because I never seen very many big bucks just small one the reason for that was simple I was lazy and road hunted or only hunted close to the road. Key to killing bigger bucks............ Get off your ass and hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only thing that needs to change is more antlerless tags getting issued. There a lots of big bucks but they got big for a reason it's not because there was an antler restriction it was because they learned to stay away from roads and people because they shoot at him surprise. Thing is most people that road hunt don't kill big bucks. Because they need to walk! Crazy Idea walking..... huh? Wow who would have thought that actually hunting instead of driving around might produce bigger bucks. There is 1,000,000 acres of collville national forest over here. Get off you ass and hunt. sure there are way to many does but there are still lots of big buck I pick up their shed every year. So most uneducated lazy hunters want to make super easy so they can sit in the heated truck and shot a Boone and Crockett out their window. Get out and hunt and quit your bitchin!!!!!!! Sorry if this offends anyone but this one pushes my buttons.

[DeKuma]

I realize this is a heated topic for you pendorielle, but please keep the attacks off of here.
There are many people who road hunt because that is what they are capable of.  Does not mean they are inferior.
My father is a road hunter, but he is also 67 years old.  Does that make him lazy that he cannot do it anymore like he used to?

Further posts such as the above will be removed or edited to show respect to other hunters.

[pendoreilleadventures]

I understand that if you are unable to walk because of age or disability then all you have is your vehicle and I didn't mean to lump everyone in an attack sorry for that.  it's just that it ticks me off when someone that is very capable of walking doesn't kill or see any big bucks and then complains about it because all he sees is small bucks and does and thinks the solution is to have antler restrictions. The solution is walk didnt drive it's simple if you choose to road hunt but are a health man then. it's your owe fault for not seeing big buck.

[DeKuma]

I totally agree.  I know that hunting with my dad that I am missing out on the big bucks, but I make it a choice to ferry him around the roads and take what we can get.  It is hard knowing he cannot go where we used to go.........

I understand your frustration, and did not intend to come across so harsh, but it is frustration for me to see people getting bashed so much on this site lately, that maybe I jumped the gun.

I appreciate your opinion and willingness to underestand my point.

[pendoreilleadventures]

sorry didnt mean to disrespect anyone just stating how i feel about the lazy ones never intended to bash on older hunters. MY bad.

[muleyguy]

restricting the harvest to 3 pt or 4 pt does not  achieve the objective of creating more "mature" (4.5 yrs+) animals, especially in whitetail populations.  All it does is shift the bulk of the harvest from yearling animals (1.5 yr) to 2.5 yr old's.  Almost all 2.5 year old whitetails will be tiny, basket-racked 3 pt or 4pt's, and, many whitetails can be very small 3 pts their first year anyway.

And, other studies have shown that antler restrictions can actually HURT the mature buck population because it results in hunters staying in the field longer, thus increasing their odds of running into a truly mature animal.

So, the effect can be one of just lifting the harvest to 2.5 yr old animals, and FEWER mature bucks.  Antler restrictions tend to be popular because when people start shooting 2.5 yr old deer vs 1.5 yr old deer, they are many times the biggest animals they have ever shot, so everybody thinks they are shooting a "mature" buck now.

It is very important for deer herds to have good numbers of mature bucks because studies have shown that offspring from does that are breed from mature bucks have a lower mortality rate.  But, as many have pointed out, whitetails in NE washington have great habitat and lots of private ground.  This habitat and land ownership creates plenty of mature whitetails in the population.  I would hazard a guess that many whitetail bucks die of old age.

the other issue I see cropping up is this idea you need to issue more doe tags, so as to increase the buck to doe ratio.  That is nonsense.  Think of it this way:  if there are a 100 deer that live there, and 35 of them are bucks, that means 65 are does (35/100).  If you kill 15 does through doe tags, you now have a "better" ratio,  but, you have not made 1 more buck in the population, there are still only 35 bucks.

If you want to increase the buck to doe ratio, you have to limit the number of bucks you shoot, not decrease the number of does in the population.

The only reason to issue doe tags is if the habitat cannot support the current deer levels;  that is not the case in NE WA;  the habitat can easily sustain the current deer population, and probably more.  By issuing doe tags, when the habitat is not at carrying levels, will actually have the opposite effect and result in fewer bucks being recruited into the population.

really, NE WA is perfect for the most part.  It has good population levels, good buck to doe ratio's, and a good mix of younger and older bucks in the population because of the nature of whitetail bucks (secretive) and the good habitat.  As someone pointed out, it really has everything, it can accomodate ALL hunters, regardless of preference for rack size, etc.

Now mule deer are a different story, mostly because of their nature (always giving you that look back...) and their preference for more open territory.  Their are many, many areas in WA state and many other Western states were the age class in the herd is completely screwed up and you have immature bucks doing the bulk of the breeding.  In some areas you also have pathetically low buck to doe ratio's.

In these areas, you need to adopt a strategy very simalar to what they have done with the Yakima elk herd, or the SE Idaho mule deer herd, anybody who has witnessed the elk herd in Yakima before and after the spike only rule, can attest to it.  In SE Idaho they restrict the general season to 2 pt or smaller. And, like the yakima elk herd, give out a number of "any buck" tags.  In this way, they cull out the younger bucks on an annual basis, leaving the mature animals to do the breeding.  This type of arrangement provides hunting opportunities to people that just want a buck, fixes the screwed up age classes, and improves the buck to doe ratio, while providing an opportunity for antler hunters to find what they are looking for, although not on an ever year basis.  It also provides the weekend warrior mule deer hunter an opportunity to harvest a truly trophy animal.

This has worked beautifully in the elk herd around Yakima.  The chances of an "average joe" shooting a large, mature bull elk, is actually better now, than it was pre-spike only.  There were so few mature animals in the population before, that your chances of shooting one were very remote.  Now, while you may only draw a big bull tag once over 6 or 7 years, your chances of shooting a mature elk are fairly high when you eventually do.  For those of you who cannot remember, if you went to the feeding station pre-spike only it was pathetic for bulls (very few, mostly spikes), now, it is simply amazing what this simply rule change has done to the population.  You have a healthy population with a good mix of age classes, with lots of general season hunting opportunity with the spike only for people, and a chance once ever 5 to 7 yrs to shoot a bull that many people only dream of, or have to pay $10,000 to.