Elk Hunting Competencies

[WapitiTalk1]

What puts an elk hunter in that 10-12% range? I believe all elk hunters that consistently get shot opportunities each year share a common set of competencies or skill sets. Yes, each individual may have specific ways of going about the business at hand but most successful elk hunters I know share a good handfull of these competencies. What are they? Attitude, experience, physical fitness, understanding of elk behavior, mastery of weapon used, understanding of elk vocalization, patience, short memory, expert backwoods navigator, pre-hunt research and planning expertise?

What do you folks think are the core competencies of a good elk hunter?

[Jonathan_S]

I would say that from my observations:

TOP 3 Important Attributes
understanding elk behavior
understanding vocalization 
planning pre-hunt


TOP 2 Overrated Attributes
Physical Fitness
Mastery of Weapon Used

[jay.sharkbait]

Time off work..

[Bean Counter]

Having to actually draw your tag and not just buying it OTC. I am guessing there is a high correlation to those who go to camp based on tradition alone and those who have unfilled tags.

[trophyhunt]

knowledge of the area you are hunting and how the elk move around in those area's are big in my categories. Which I think takes years to learn.  And Not waiting around for 20 years for a tag helps!!

[Tbar]

Dumb luck and persistence or vice versa.

[WSU]

Time in the woods/persistence has to be close to the top.  Sometimes my elk have come from skill and sometimes you bumble into them.  Beyond that, knowledge of elk behavior.  Also, I'm sure it varies by weapon group.  Skills that are very helpful during early season may be irrelevant by late season.

[ipkus]

So...there are so many different kinds of elk hunts that certain things may be important during one season, and almost irrelevant during another.  10 day backpack archery hunts demand different things than November rifle hunts.  I've been to an awful lot of funerals for elk in my life, from August to January and 400 to 10,000 ft., and my advice would be this;

1.) Understand elk behavior

Understanding where elk want to be when the weather is X, the hunting pressure is Y, the terrain is Z, etc. is really the paramount thing a hunter needs to know to consistently kill elk.  Once you really know elk behavior, someone can drop you off anywhere from New Mexico to Montana to Nevada and you can quickly solve the puzzle. Everything else you mention revolves around this point, and while you can learn quite a bit from reading and talking to other people, experience will be your best teacher.

2.)  Familiarity/experience in the hunting area

I know people who can consistently kill elk in certain areas because they've learned a spot, but because they don't hunt different places much if at all they haven't connected the dots.

3a, b, c, d, e...)  pre hunt planning, physical fitness, ability to shoot, calling ability, etc. all have there place and importance depending on what type of hunt you are doing, but number 1 is the key. 

No matter how good you are at the rest of it, you can't kill an elk you can't find.

 

[kentrek]

for all elk hunting id say not being desperate

[vandeman17]

I think being able to adapt is key to success. Even if you hunt the same spot every year, things are rarely the same so being flexible and adjust to different conditions is very important. Knowing what to do and how to respond to those changes is something that comes with time and experience.

[elk247]

Knowledge of area, bedding area, feeding/drinking areas, escape routes, thermal currents/changes,
Willingness to work harder than the other %90. Scouting, burned boot leather and off season preparation with the weapon system are other factors that separate the consistently successful hunters from the wannabes.

[WapitiTalk1]

So...there are so many different kinds of elk hunts that certain things may be important during one season, and almost irrelevant during another.  10 day backpack archery hunts demand different things than November rifle hunts.  I've been to an awful lot of funerals for elk in my life, from August to January and 400 to 10,000 ft., and my advice would be this;

1.) Understand elk behavior

Understanding where elk want to be when the weather is X, the hunting pressure is Y, the terrain is Z, etc. is really the paramount thing a hunter needs to know to consistently kill elk.  Once you really know elk behavior, someone can drop you off anywhere from New Mexico to Montana to Nevada and you can quickly solve the puzzle. Everything else you mention revolves around this point, and while you can learn quite a bit from reading and talking to other people, experience will be your best teacher.

2.)  Familiarity/experience in the hunting area

I know people who can consistently kill elk in certain areas because they've learned a spot, but because they don't hunt different places much if at all they haven't connected the dots.

3a, b, c, d, e...)  pre hunt planning, physical fitness, ability to shoot, calling ability, etc. all have there place and importance depending on what type of hunt you are doing, but number 1 is the key. 

No matter how good you are at the rest of it, you can't kill an elk you can't find.

 

   Nicely put. 

[deerslyr]

Knowing your area and how the elk use it is the key IMO. one of the biggest elk slayers I know is 73 years old in ok shape for his age and has been hunting the same area his whole life. He doesn't have to hike far to kill elk because he knows the area so well and filled both his tags this year. The other elk slayer I know is 55 smokes a pack of marb reds a day (don't recommend or promote this) and filled both of his elk tags this year. been hunting the same area for 20 years.

Now here's the kicker. I consider a good elk hunter some one who can go to the same spot every year and kill an elk.

I consider a GREAT elk hunter some one who can go to any unit any time and kill an elk. This is where fitness, general elk behavior, weapon knowledge etc comes into play big time.

[washelkhunter]

Roll out 2 hrs before legal light, hunt all day, come back way after dark, repeat till done.

[stew pidasso]

Roll out 2 hrs before legal light, hunt all day, come back way after dark, repeat till done.

  yep, time in the woods.

[Big6bull]

Everything you need to be successful you can learn but you can only learn with dedication and going the extra mile. Every time I feel I can't go any further mentally or physicly I push myself. Then good things happen 

[Wanttohuntmore]

ASAT camo or a lucky hat.   

[grundy53]

I think perseverance and mental toughness are the number one traits. All of the others are important but all of them will fail you at one time or another. That's when mental toughness will get you through. Can't kill elk if you quit.

[Spawnstar]

I have a slogan, hunt harder than 98% of people and you'll shoot the top 2% of game. Most guys give in and give up after a few days, you've got to hunt to the very last minute. And have more persistence and not give up and start road hunting after a couple hours into the day. And if it doesn't work, improvise adapt and overcome.

[idaho guy]

Knowing your area and how the elk use it is the key IMO. one of the biggest elk slayers I know is 73 years old in ok shape for his age and has been hunting the same area his whole life. He doesn't have to hike far to kill elk because he knows the area so well and filled both his tags this year. The other elk slayer I know is 55 smokes a pack of marb reds a day (don't recommend or promote this) and filled both of his elk tags this year. been hunting the same area for 20 years.

Now here's the kicker. I consider a good elk hunter some one who can go to the same spot every year and kill an elk.


I consider a GREAT elk hunter some one who can go to any unit any time and kill an elk. This is where fitness, general elk behavior, weapon knowledge etc comes into play big time.

  :yeah:one of my buddies kills his elk every year from a tree stand on nf land 15 minutes from my house. it is a small amount of acreage I don't intrude on his spot because he is my buddy and there is million of acres to hunt even though he is almost in my backyard. I was always the harder not smarter hunter believing that if I hiked in three hours before light into the worst hell hole possible I would be successfull. It worked but in the last probably 5 years or more my buddies success has been twice mine. He kept pounding the same mountain and elk and finally figured there patterns out and has a pretty easy hunt every year.  If I take him into one of my spots he can't kill an elk and would be like a fish out of water. I am not a great elk hunter but the great ones are those that do hunt hard and have learned those lessons that allow them to kill elk anywhere. Bottom line I think is how do you want to hunt elk. Sitting in a tree stand or ground blind ? I can think of at least 4 other buddies that get their elk every year this way. Or do you want to actively call and chase em all over? I have always bow hunted for the excitement of calling elk in close screaming. I'm getting older so I am actually planning where to hang a tree stand this year! All I am saying is harder and killing yourself does not mean success over the laid back tree stand sitting hunters.  It only took me 25 years to learn this!

[Karl Blanchard]

Everyone hunts differently so what is key for one guy is mute for another.  For me personally, physical fitness, mental toughness, and knowledge of elk behavior/vocalizations, weapon proficiency are all the pieces to my puzzle. 

For me there is no secret to how I fill tags.  I hike until it gets dark and then I head back to wherever it is I am sleeping for the night.  I repeat that until I have filled my tag or the season ends.  You do that and all the other pieces fall into place eventually.  Keep grinding until you find something to shoot at.  Work harder and go farther than everyone else and eventually I will find game.  It works every time. 

I shoot my bow almost every day starting in about June to prepare for September.  I also spend a ton of time with my rifles/muzzleloader at the range as well as coyote hunting year round to keep my gun abilities polished.  Doesn't matter how great you are at getting on elk, if you haven't built the muscle memory to go into auto pilot or "kill mode" as I like to call it, and you send the arrow a foot over your targets back, then its all for nothing.

However, be prepared to feel like an idiot when you spend two days packing elk meat and your old man shoots one right behind camp sitting on his stump

[JWEBB]

Just like Tred Barta always says, "90% of it is about getting out there and doin the work!" 

[huntnnw]

Certain areas of the country if you are getting shots at bulls consistently your doing something right, but to live in one of these western states such as CO and you are not getting shots your either not into hunting that much or havent got out much.

[WapitiTalk1]

I really hope some of the newer elk hunters (or even those who have been hunting for years but do not consistently get shot opportunities each year) are taking notes. I have this thread running on three hunting forums and am really getting some great input. Once the threads run their course, I'll capsulate everthing and post.
 

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

I've only been able to get shot ops the last three years.  But I atribute it to all of the same stuff as mentioned above.  Patients, persistence and perseverance.

[tonymiller7]

Get away from roads and people, preseason scouting.

[coachcw]

Some people are just hunters , the way they stalk and think and the drive to do what ever it takes . I always told people you have to hunt elk where they are not where you want to hunt , no matter where that may be or how crappy it will be to get one out . there is only so many of hours to hunt don't leave any on the table .

[rosscrazyelk]

knowledge of the area you are hunting and how the elk move around in those area's are big in my categories. Which I think takes years to learn.  And Not waiting around for 20 years for a tag helps!!

Also to be stupid enough to keep putting your body thru hell and going where most won't.
And luck.
But honestly I always believed you get out what you put in.

[Karl Blanchard]

Some people are just hunters , the way they stalk and think and the drive to do what ever it takes . I always told people you have to hunt elk where they are not where you want to hunt , no matter where that may be or how crappy it will be to get one out . there is only so many of hours to hunt don't leave any on the table .

  I know some guys who hunt pretty hard but they just can't connect the dots.  There are only so many hunters in a tribe, comes to mind.

[Jingles]

While the topic of this thread specifies Elk we all have to admit that the same characteristics that make an elk hunter successful year after year are the same characteristics that make any hunter repeatedly successful... Hell they make a person successful in life too.
Called dedication and perseverance

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

Some people are just hunters , the way they stalk and think and the drive to do what ever it takes . I always told people you have to hunt elk where they are not where you want to hunt , no matter where that may be or how crappy it will be to get one out . there is only so many of hours to hunt don't leave any on the table .

  I know some guys who hunt pretty hard but they just can't connect the dots.  There are only so many hunters in a tribe, comes to mind.

How many years have those guys been hunting hard?  Takes some time to learn an area and be able to consistently get opportunities.  I hunted hard for four years going all over the state. Northeast, eastern wa, central wa,  northwest and southwest.  I would hunt hard.  A lot harder than I hunt now.  And my opportunities those years were very rare.  After I settled on an area and actually started learning about elk I can get a shot op more times than not what I do at the moment of truth is a differnt story.  Pre season was a huge factor in learning how to locate the elk.  Shooting the bow all year.  Even if it's only ten arrows over a month.  Keeps me in form.  Being addicted to elk hunting is what worked best for me.  Next ridge next ridge next ridge repeat till you have elk down.

[Karl Blanchard]

Some people are just hunters , the way they stalk and think and the drive to do what ever it takes . I always told people you have to hunt elk where they are not where you want to hunt , no matter where that may be or how crappy it will be to get one out . there is only so many of hours to hunt don't leave any on the table .

  I know some guys who hunt pretty hard but they just can't connect the dots.  There are only so many hunters in a tribe, comes to mind.

How many years have those guys been hunting hard?  Takes some time to learn an area and be able to consistently get opportunities.  I hunted hard for four years going all over the state. Northeast, eastern wa, central wa,  northwest and southwest.  I would hunt hard.  A lot harder than I hunt now.  And my opportunities those years were very rare.  After I settled on an area and actually started learning about elk I can get a shot op more times than not what I do at the moment of truth is a differnt story.  Pre season was a huge factor in learning how to locate the elk.  Shooting the bow all year.  Even if it's only ten arrows over a month.  Keeps me in form.  Being addicted to elk hunting is what worked best for me.  Next ridge next ridge next ridge repeat till you have elk down.

  Few guys I'm thinking of have been at it a long time.  Difference between you and them is you are connecting all the pieces of the puzzle, where they have failed to do so.  Its one thing to go through the motions, its another to go through those same motions and observe and absorb all the important details along the way. 

[rtspring]

You have to want it more than anything! When your tired keep pushing.

#1 mistake I see is guys moving to fast through the woods! Elk dont just vanish, but for as big as they are they hide very well. 

I live to hunt elk and think about it everyday..  I have a pretty high success rate and kinda think I know what I'm doing after 29 years. 

I got burned bad with my bow last year but can't wait to use it again this year. 

[Jonathan_S]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

[Karl Blanchard]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

[Jonathan_S]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

I'm right there with you!  Got a long way to go

My natural tendency is to go full steam ahead but it's when I slowed down that I started killing animals more often.

[Karl Blanchard]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

I'm right there with you!  Got a long way to go

My natural tendency is to go full steam ahead but it's when I slowed down that I started killing animals more often.

I'm always in awe at the true big dogs of the elk woods.  I've learned more in the last two season's hunting with Coach than the last decade of grinding it out on my own.  I have only eaten elk tag soup a few times but I still feel like a rookie.  I feel like he has forgotten more about elk hunting than I will ever know

[rtspring]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

I'm right there with you!  Got a long way to go

My natural tendency is to go full steam ahead but it's when I slowed down that I started killing animals more often.

I'm always in awe at the true big dogs of the elk woods.  I've learned more in the last two season's hunting with Coach than the last decade of grinding it out on my own.  I have only eaten elk tag soup a few times but I still feel like a rookie.  I feel like he has forgotten more about elk hunting than I will ever know

Coach kills 380 bulls next to roads!!  Thats all skill

[ridgefire]

Mental toughness, hunting where the elk are and then really learning the area are tops. Being in shape will keep you in the woods longer as well.

[coachcw]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

I'm right there with you!  Got a long way to go

My natural tendency is to go full steam ahead but it's when I slowed down that I started killing animals more often.

I'm always in awe at the true big dogs of the elk woods.  I've learned more in the last two season's hunting with Coach than the last decade of grinding it out on my own.  I have only eaten elk tag soup a few times but I still feel like a rookie.  I feel like he has forgotten more about elk hunting than I will ever know

Coach kills 380 bulls next to roads!!  Thats all skill

heck hike 200 miles to get them close to a road. Any time you think you have elk figured out you get burned. Elk adapt well  and  don't like human contact.  I remember wearing elk decoys we made holding them up and sneaking in on elk. I have been really fortunate to be able to harvest  fourty or so elk in 24 years or so. You learn something on everyone. The one constant in every archery hunt was the wind it is the single most important factor. Guys like blrman  are taking the torch and carrying on . I feel like I can still get after it but no where near the way I could at 30. It used to be all about harvest in my 20s  and 30s  that has shifted a bit in the last few.  I can't remember how many times in the last twenty years I took off in the direction away from elk near dark and ended up back at camp well after dark . I believe  sitting on stand can be effective but it's not for me , I just don't get the same satisfaction  from it . One other tip for still hunting is to look as far off as possible  then scan back to you. You must see the elk first. As far as scouting I be leave it's good to a point and from distance . I think way to many guys are getting to close to elk and educating them . Scouting in a area that gets hit hard typically works opening day . I have seen guys that scouted and planned get really bummed by day two or three when all there preparation dosnt pay off. Hunt hard and try new things call at times and don't be afraid to blow it . My motto has been if you know where he is and the wind is good go for it now !

[coachcw]

I also think  of me deer and elk differently . For mule  deer it's all about the glass time while for me elk is about covering ground and  vocalizations.  Bull elk like to pose Most of the fall they answer from a distance and move off when challenged , you can tell when there in that mode as you will hear bulls sounding off never getting closer to each other.when this happens be agressive and close that gap .once your in there kitchen give them the cow call . My other looser use is if a bull is bulging to your cow calls don't bugle at him as often he will bug out if you blow at him.

[Karl Blanchard]

Sometimes it's not about boot leather.  If you hunt in areas with very small and elusive herds, you need to hunt only that small area but be so meticulous that it drives you crazy.  In six years of hunting one area, I've had 3 shot opportunities and killed one elk, it is a very small group of elk and if I were to "burn boot leather" I would blow them out or walk 10 miles past them.

So far, the closest comparison to elk hunting is blacktail hunting.  I've never heard a successful blacktail hunter say, "I've put on 60 miles the past two weeks and still no blacktail.  No, people like BH45 have great spots and the revisit them.  They are little areas that hold big bucks.  That's what elk hunting is like to me.  Every time I have tried to put mad miles on, I blow out elk and see nothing.

It is definitely very unique to different people and to different areas.  Where one person excels, one person fails miserably.  Sounds like I would not do well in your area   The best hunters out there have all the skills to be able to adapt to any situation, area, or technique.  I hope to one day make it to that level.  I've got a very long way to go

I'm right there with you!  Got a long way to go

My natural tendency is to go full steam ahead but it's when I slowed down that I started killing animals more often.

I'm always in awe at the true big dogs of the elk woods.  I've learned more in the last two season's hunting with Coach than the last decade of grinding it out on my own.  I have only eaten elk tag soup a few times but I still feel like a rookie.  I feel like he has forgotten more about elk hunting than I will ever know

Coach kills 380 bulls next to roads!!  Thats all skill

heck hike 200 miles to get them close to a road. Any time you think you have elk figured out you get burned. Elk adapt well  and  don't like human contact.  I remember wearing elk decoys we made holding them up and sneaking in on elk. I have been really fortunate to be able to harvest  fourty or so elk in 24 years or so. You learn something on everyone. The one constant in every archery hunt was the wind it is the single most important factor. Guys like blrman  are taking the torch and carrying on . I feel like I can still get after it but no where near the way I could at 30. It used to be all about harvest in my 20s  and 30s  that has shifted a bit in the last few.  I can't remember how many times in the last twenty years I took off in the direction away from elk near dark and ended up back at camp well after dark . I believe  sitting on stand can be effective but it's not for me , I just don't get the same satisfaction  from it . One other tip for still hunting is to look as far off as possible  then scan back to you. You must see the elk first. As far as scouting I be leave it's good to a point and from distance . I think way to many guys are getting to close to elk and educating them . Scouting in a area that gets hit hard typically works opening day . I have seen guys that scouted and planned get really bummed by day two or three when all there preparation dosnt pay off. Hunt hard and try new things call at times and don't be afraid to blow it . My motto has been if you know where he is and the wind is good go for it now !

Man your old

[coachcw]

tell me kid .... Ive  followed  you up the hill    .   But I made it ,Like Shockey says keep stepping

[mjustice79]

I really hope some of the newer elk hunters (or even those who have been hunting for years but do not consistently get shot opportunities each year) are taking notes. I have this thread running on three hunting forums and am really getting some great input. Once the threads run their course, I'll capsulate everthing and post.

I know that I am! Great info for a first time elk hunter this upcoming season! 

[buglebrush]

Find that "Spot within a spot".  There are no secret spots.  Elk Hunters, especially archers, are willing to burn the boot leather.  I am always amazed how we think we are the only ones working that hard.  Every honey hole I have gets hunted to some extent by others, but I believe the vast majority of those others haven't found the "Spot within the Spot".  We may park at the same place, but my success will be far greater if I am at the perfect spot a half hour before daylight.  It isn't always way back in either.