Jasmine training with RJ

[addicted2hunting]

6hrs a day of training with the same dog?  Seriously?

yes sir... but only cause he keeps on wanting more... that's a weekend of training though not everyday...  during the week he lounges around the house all day then goes out for his 1-2 hrs of "practicing what we've learned" and then let him run/swim it off after...

[jetjockey]

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  I can't handle 6 hours of training a day.  There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less.  Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog. 

[addicted2hunting]

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  I can't handle 6 hours of training a day.  There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less.  Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.

I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...

[wildweeds]

I have seen versatile dogs with 12 oclock tails,Wirehairs/vislas/German shorthairs and even a couple of verminrunnin weimeraners.They would have lots of style but IMO versatile owners start applying the hammer and turning the screws way to young.BTW you can't train for "Style" the dog is born with it.Excessive training and training tactics knock it out of them.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  I can't handle 6 hours of training a day.  There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less.  Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.

I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...

[addicted2hunting]

I have seen versatile dogs with 12 oclock tails,Wirehairs/vislas/German shorthairs and even a couple of verminrunnin weimeraners.They would have lots of style but IMO versatile owners start applying the hammer and turning the screws way to young.BTW you can't train for "Style" the dog is born with it.Excessive training and training tactics knock it out of them.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  I can't handle 6 hours of training a day.  There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less.  Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.

I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...

Oh ya I've seen them also, just not as important to most versatile guys. But agree you can take away a lot of style that the dog is born with by too much pressure. It just depends on what style means to you. I like a straight tail and lower head. It really depends on the dog too some can handle more pressure others can't. It takes experience reading dogs to determine methods used to train a dog. Some it may take longer or shorter they all are different. Sorry about the long drawn out bickering, old dog, I'm sure RJ will do a fine job as I've yet to see him not do so, and that's awesome you are doing sessions so you get something from it also...

[jetjockey]

It's not just style your taking away.  Your also taking away the confidence, the independence, and setting yourself up to get a dog that blinks.  All those things go hand in hand.  Breaking a dog naturally takes away a dogs confidence because your asking it to do something that isnt natural.  Good trainers will build a dogs confidence up by letting it run, chase birds, bump birds, and build its confidence and independence.  When you break a dog, you naturally lose some of that confidence and independence.  However, after the breaking process the dog will typically regain that co fire cd, and more, but only if you instilled the confidence to begin with.  If you break a dog too early and really hammer down in it, they often never get that confidence back.  You may have a dog that can pass a NAVHDA test on released birds in a controlled situation, but that dog won't have he confidence to be a great wild bird dog because they are afraid if they do anything wrong they will get zapped.  And believe me, with wild birds, they will screw up.   That's the reason you don't break a dog until it's ready, and the reason you take your time and do it right as to not create a robot.

[addicted2hunting]

It's not just style your taking away.  Your also taking away the confidence, the independence, and setting yourself up to get a dog that blinks.  All those things go hand in hand.  Breaking a dog naturally takes away a dogs confidence because your asking it to do something that isnt natural.  Good trainers will build a dogs confidence up by letting it run, chase birds, bump birds, and build its confidence and independence.  When you break a dog, you naturally lose some of that confidence and independence.  However, after the breaking process the dog will typically regain that co fire cd, and more, but only if you instilled the confidence to begin with.  If you break a dog too early and really hammer down in it, they often never get that confidence back.  You may have a dog that can pass a NAVHDA test on released birds in a controlled situation, but that dog won't have he confidence to be a great wild bird dog because they are afraid if they do anything wrong they will get zapped.  And believe me, with wild birds, they will screw up.   That's the reason you don't break a dog until it's ready, and the reason you take your time and do it right as to not create a robot.

agree 100% the dog needs to have a strong prey drive going and be ready like you said to be broke. my dog wasnt ready for that pressure till he was a yr old. pretty much when he is insane out of control on birds...I did notice the initial lack of confidence and hunting close but a dog with a strong prey drive like you said will open back up... my dog even after all that needs to be reigned in a bit as he gets out there pretty quick. he ranges about 300 yards pretty honestly. if I let him range out further he tends to be more dishonest on birds. my comfortable range with him is 300 yds right now. but I do understand not all dogs can take that... I'm learning also....

[AspenBud]

NSTRA does not require your dog to be steady to shot if memory serves. You shoot and the dog starts running and that's okay. If someone can say otherwise please speak up. But as far as I know national champion NSTRA dogs are trained that way as some believe it helps the dogs find the birds they must retrieve.

Training is a matter of taste and what a venue requires.

Plenty of trial dogs can point a wild bird for an eternity. That's not where some might break down in chukar hunting. It's the physical demands that might be a problem if a dog hasn't been conditioned for it.

NAVHDA favors dogs that work more robotically. What field trial dogs are expected to do would be considered "self hunting" under NAVHDA. Nothing wrong with either, but the expectations and demands are different.

[addicted2hunting]

NSTRA does not require your dog to be steady to shot if memory serves. You shoot and the dog starts running and that's okay. If someone can say otherwise please speak up. But as far as I know national champion NSTRA dogs are trained that way as some believe it helps the dogs find the birds they must retrieve.

Training is a matter of taste and what a venue requires.

Plenty of trial dogs can point a wild bird for an eternity. That's not where some might break down in chukar hunting. It's the physical demands that might be a problem if a dog hasn't been conditioned for it.

NAVHDA favors dogs that work more robotically. What field trial dogs are expected to do would be considered "self hunting" under NAVHDA. Nothing wrong with either, but the expectations and demands are different.

very well said...

[AspenBud]

That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.

There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.

If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.

Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.

[Old Dog]

All right, a good discourse. 

Now back to our original programing. 

Here's a link to a video of the clinic RJ put for the NW pointing Labrador Club last Sat.  The video is kind of long,  and the clip of Jasmine is very short.   

feature=youtu.be

I remain very pleased with the results so far.  Next step is to do it off lead. 

[addicted2hunting]

That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.

There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.

If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.

Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.

Exactly how I do it. Although I got some racing homers instead. But that chukar and pigeon setup works really well.
Yeah I saw the clinic video.... Looks good.. I would like to talk with RJ about why he tosses the dead bird after shoot to miss. Seems like he has something there...

[AspenBud]

That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.

There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.

If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.

Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.

Exactly how I do it. Although I got some racing homers instead. But that chukar and pigeon setup works really well.
Yeah I saw the clinic video.... Looks good.. I would like to talk with RJ about why he tosses the dead bird after shoot to miss. Seems like he has something there...

Honestly I think a person can get a lot done with just pigeons. The dogs figure out the real thing fairly quick once they get some contacts. The only time that dogs run in Cover Dog trials encounter ruffed grouse is when they are run on them in the wild. Everything prior to that, unless the trainer started them on something else in another part of the country or got in the woods outside the quiet season with a pup, is generally pen raised fowl that smell or behave nothing like a lake states grouse.

[JBar]

All right, a good discourse. 

Now back to our original programing. 

Here's a link to a video of the clinic RJ put for the NW pointing Labrador Club last Sat.  The video is kind of long,  and the clip of Jasmine is very short.   

feature=youtu.be

I remain very pleased with the results so far.  Next step is to do it off lead. 

Guys instead of continuing to Jack Larrys' thread why don't you start another discussion.  Jas is looking good Larry!! Was going to send my dog to RJ also but we're working through her problems pretty good.

[Shannon]

Aspen bud-NASTRA does not require steady to shot. I always made my dog stay steady until I released her. They scored her high on obedience but nobody was impressed I made them do it. It hurts you cuz it's a timed event but it was always important to me.